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The web is a tough place to try to help people. They sign up for your free virtual ant-farming business, then they don't use it. Why? Beats me. Beats everybody

The web is a tough place to try to help people. They sign up for your free virtual ant-farming business, then they don't use it. Why? Beats me. Beats everybody. You can either just ignore them or assume they need help. If you ignore them, they're guaranteed to go away. If you try to help and they need it, good for you! If you try to help and they don't want it? They don't want to farm virtual ants anyway. So they spam-flag you and you go away. You made an extra effort. This looks like the best solution to me to a tricky problem. It helps the most number of people. Assuming that everybody that initially wants something is going to somehow pester the crap out of you until they figure out how to do it doesn't seem rational. How else should a service act? I love a good rant, but I'm honestly left feeling like this person hasn't thought this problem through from all of the relevant viewpoints.

arkitaip 14y ago
Relevant viewpoints? This is Weebly spamming their customers in a sad attempt to resuscitate a dying customer relationship.
scott_s 14y ago
What you are describing is not what this person experienced. Weebly sent an email a day, for a week. I understand one email, maybe even two after a few days. But every day for a week is too much.
- duck 14y ago
  I agree with you and I wouldn't like getting all those emails, but I imagine all this has been tested and this produced the best results. If that is the case, we can't really say this is too much.
  - tedsanders 14y ago
    Actually, it sounds like this was part of a test and he was in the high-volume group.
  - tempestn 14y ago
    Yes we can. Spam produces good results too, for the spammer. Even if the every-day email volume tested well in the short term, it will still likely have long-term business consequences. And even if it works well for them in the long term, it is still a net negative to society.
- auctiontheory 14y ago
  I'd agree with you if he'd used the unsubscribe link they provided with every message!
  - scott_s 14y ago
    Putting unsubscribe links in unsolicited emails is not a bullet-proof vest; it does not remove their responsibility to avoid bothering people.
    - rubinelli 14y ago
      Yes, it does. They can't possibly know if they are bothering you or not, if you won't even click that link. If I ask you every five minutes if I'm bothering you and you don't say anything, then later you write a blog post about how I won't stop talking, who acted passive-aggressive?
      - scott_s 14y ago
        They can possibly know if they may other people by using their imagination and a little empathy. If I get to the point that I hunt around - and I often do have to hunt around - for the unsubscribe link, your company has failed.
      - redthrowaway 14y ago
        > They can't possibly know if they are bothering you or not Really? Take off the programmer hat and put on your human hat for a second. #include <empathy.h> How would you feel getting a vaguely aggressive message every day from some random company? I can't imagine there are very many people who would appreciate it. In fact, I can't imagine there're very many people on the planet who would think it's a good idea. The only way anyone ever thinks some stupid thing like this is a good idea is if they're blindly following the results of their A/B testing without taking a look at the big picture. The kinds of people who do this are the same people who play D&D as minmaxers, rule-lawyers and metagamers, then get confused when the gaming group falls apart. You might be measuring conversion rates (or XP and magic items gamed), but conversion rates are not your business. The point of a business is to make something people want to buy, just as the point of a D&D session is to have fun. By blindly following the numbers without thinking about the people involved, you optimize yourself into the ground.
- Schwolop 14y ago
  And on every single email the person had the following options: 1. Click the unsubscribe link. 2. Mark it as spam in his/her email client. 3. Actively follow-up and publish his/her site. 4. Ignore it and move on with life. 5. Collect it as an example of excessive lifecycle emails, then write a laborious article decrying the company's marketing practices. The OP is tech-savvy and knows about each of these possible choices. He/She chose #5 each and every time. I argue that the resulting anger is non-constructive.
chris_wot 14y ago
If they sign up and don't use the service, the best way to user engagement is not by spamming them into submission. Bad move Weebly.
voyou 14y ago
"If you try to help and they don't want it? They don't want to farm virtual ants anyway. So they spam-flag you and you go away." But what if they later decide they do want a virtual ant farm, but don't want to use your virtual ant-farm business because of its previous spamming? This seems like it would be hard to measure - the people who are glad to get the reminder and so re-engage with the service do so quickly, so are easy to keep track of; but how do you measure the people who would have returned to your service next month, but didn't because you annoyed them with too many emails?
- Schwolop 14y ago
  You measure this by looking at your competitors. And when you're as successful as Weebly compared to theirs, it's a reasonable conclusion that the purported repercussions of this behaviour are close enough to negligible.
enraged_camel 14y ago
>>They sign up for your free virtual ant-farming business, then they don't use it. Why? Beats me. Beats everybody. You can either just ignore them or assume they need help. I have done this before - not with ant-farming, but with many other products. The reason is mostly what I would describe as "temporary mindshare." One evening I might get motivated to learn shaving with a safety razor and sign up for some newsletters, only to then have other stuff come up. I suppose this might qualify as some sort of "Internet A.D.D." where we have so many things competing for our time and attention that, even if we get hooked by something, it is only temporary.

arkitaip 14y ago

Relevant viewpoints? This is Weebly spamming their customers in a sad attempt to resuscitate a dying customer relationship.

scott_s 14y ago

What you are describing is not what this person experienced. Weebly sent an email a day, for a week. I understand one email, maybe even two after a few days. But every day for a week is too much.

duck 14y ago
I agree with you and I wouldn't like getting all those emails, but I imagine all this has been tested and this produced the best results. If that is the case, we can't really say this is too much.
- tedsanders 14y ago
  Actually, it sounds like this was part of a test and he was in the high-volume group.
- tempestn 14y ago
  Yes we can. Spam produces good results too, for the spammer. Even if the every-day email volume tested well in the short term, it will still likely have long-term business consequences. And even if it works well for them in the long term, it is still a net negative to society.
auctiontheory 14y ago
I'd agree with you if he'd used the unsubscribe link they provided with every message!
- scott_s 14y ago
  Putting unsubscribe links in unsolicited emails is not a bullet-proof vest; it does not remove their responsibility to avoid bothering people.
  - rubinelli 14y ago
    Yes, it does. They can't possibly know if they are bothering you or not, if you won't even click that link. If I ask you every five minutes if I'm bothering you and you don't say anything, then later you write a blog post about how I won't stop talking, who acted passive-aggressive?
    - scott_s 14y ago
      They can possibly know if they may other people by using their imagination and a little empathy. If I get to the point that I hunt around - and I often do have to hunt around - for the unsubscribe link, your company has failed.
    - redthrowaway 14y ago
      > They can't possibly know if they are bothering you or not Really? Take off the programmer hat and put on your human hat for a second. #include <empathy.h> How would you feel getting a vaguely aggressive message every day from some random company? I can't imagine there are very many people who would appreciate it. In fact, I can't imagine there're very many people on the planet who would think it's a good idea. The only way anyone ever thinks some stupid thing like this is a good idea is if they're blindly following the results of their A/B testing without taking a look at the big picture. The kinds of people who do this are the same people who play D&D as minmaxers, rule-lawyers and metagamers, then get confused when the gaming group falls apart. You might be measuring conversion rates (or XP and magic items gamed), but conversion rates are not your business. The point of a business is to make something people want to buy, just as the point of a D&D session is to have fun. By blindly following the numbers without thinking about the people involved, you optimize yourself into the ground.
Schwolop 14y ago
And on every single email the person had the following options: 1. Click the unsubscribe link. 2. Mark it as spam in his/her email client. 3. Actively follow-up and publish his/her site. 4. Ignore it and move on with life. 5. Collect it as an example of excessive lifecycle emails, then write a laborious article decrying the company's marketing practices. The OP is tech-savvy and knows about each of these possible choices. He/She chose #5 each and every time. I argue that the resulting anger is non-constructive.

chris_wot 14y ago

If they sign up and don't use the service, the best way to user engagement is not by spamming them into submission. Bad move Weebly.

voyou 14y ago

"If you try to help and they don't want it? They don't want to farm virtual ants anyway. So they spam-flag you and you go away." But what if they later decide they do want a virtual ant farm, but don't want to use your virtual ant-farm business because of its previous spamming? This seems like it would be hard to measure - the people who are glad to get the reminder and so re-engage with the service do so quickly, so are easy to keep track of; but how do you measure the people who would have returned to your service next month, but didn't because you annoyed them with too many emails?

Schwolop 14y ago
You measure this by looking at your competitors. And when you're as successful as Weebly compared to theirs, it's a reasonable conclusion that the purported repercussions of this behaviour are close enough to negligible.

enraged_camel 14y ago

>>They sign up for your free virtual ant-farming business, then they don't use it. Why? Beats me. Beats everybody. You can either just ignore them or assume they need help. I have done this before - not with ant-farming, but with many other products. The reason is mostly what I would describe as "temporary mindshare." One evening I might get motivated to learn shaving with a safety razor and sign up for some newsletters, only to then have other stuff come up. I suppose this might qualify as some sort of "Internet A.D.D." where we have so many things competing for our time and attention that, even if we get hooked by something, it is only temporary.