5 ms·

Follow the money. The folks with the money pay the folks that make the law. Check out where some of the "virtuous defenders" of IP live and tell me IP's not a c

Follow the money. The folks with the money pay the folks that make the law. Check out where some of the "virtuous defenders" of IP live and tell me IP's not a cash cow. http://www.candysdirt.com/2013/05/06/monday-morning-millionaire-another-record-setting-19-5-million-dallas-real-estate-listing-to-lust-for-dans-bois-crete-features-movie-theater-and-concession-stand/ http://www.candysdirt.com/2013/05/06/monday-morning-milliona...

rayiner 13y ago
The entire US music and movie industry is smaller than Apple. Money is not the issue here, except to the extent that the tech industry wants to make money off the content created by the media industry.
- bediger4000 13y ago
  I think you're correct. Governments, I think, go along with the idea of "intellectual property" because property rights are stronger than free speech rights (usually). Calling ideas "property" gives governments a hope of stuffing the internet's free speech genie back into the lamp.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    I don't really see how intellectual property impinges on free speech rights. Governments support IP rights because: 1) the idea that creators have a right to control their works is more popular than the idea that the public has certain rights to access "culture"; 2) industries dependent on IP create jobs. A senator supports the MPAA companies versus downloaders because he can easily see that the MPAA companies are a source of a large number of jobs. It's as simple as that.
    - dublinben 13y ago
      Intellectual property 'rights' are diametrically opposed to free speech rights. Free speech allows you to reproduce copyrighted materials, except the IP rights overrule your speech rights. Free speech allows you to transact under a trademarked brand, but IP rights overrule your speech rights.
      - rayiner 13y ago
        Reproducing other peoples' creative works has none of the relevant characteristics of "speech."
        bediger4000 13y ago
        Sure, except what about political slogans? Supporting a candidate you like by making your own versions of posters? Oh, wait, that's what Shepard Fairey got in (copyright) trouble for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_%22Hope%22_poster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_%22Hope%22_poster But it's the control over derivative works (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work) that copyright gives you that's more obviously suppressive. All of the uses of Mona Lisa would be derivative, if Da Vinci's estate still owned the "intellectual property". All of the uses of Grant Wood's "American Gothic" would be derivative. Yes, not all "derivative works" are worth it, but neither are most "original" works. 99% of everything is crap. Copyright law is also used to suppress anything that the Rightsholder doesn't like: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/gopro-can-fall-from-planes-with-no-parachute-cant-get-copyright-law/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/gopro-can-fall-fr..., http://www.dailydot.com/business/dentist-bad-yelp-reviews-copyright/ http://www.dailydot.com/business/dentist-bad-yelp-reviews-co... and many others. This may indeed be an abuse of copyright law (copyfraud) but the laws are apparently intentionally written to allow this sort of thing. The practice is to not prosecute improper DMCA takedown notices, for example: http://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=copyfraud http://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=copyfraud So, yes, copyright per se doesn't tend to stifle free speech, but the concept of "intellectual property" gets used to get laws like DMCA passed, which are then promptly abused to censor people and their ideas. Moreover, the practice of lengthening copyright terms towards infinity keeps ideas out of the public domain, causing derivative works to not appear. One more thing: Mickey Mouse Meets the Air Pirates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Pirates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Pirates If that ain't censorship, I don't know what is.
        SEMW 13y ago
        > Copyright law is also used to suppress anything that the Rightsholder doesn't like Neither of the examples you give really support that. GoPro was about trademarks (and was hopeless anyway - it's not really the fault of trademark laws that someone can send a nastygram that's completely without legal merit, using 'trademark violation' as a scary magic word). The dentist one was only worded in terms of copyright so that the dentist could use DMCA takedown notices. You could abolish copyright altogether, and that wouldn't stop a dodgy dentist putting a clause into their patient contract saying 'you can't post bad reviews' and suing people who do. (Obviously it's bad that the DMCA is so easy to abuse, and the DMCA's flaws are well documented on hn - the point is, they're flaws in the DMCA, not in the concept of copyright).
    - pfedor 13y ago
      For example, isn't it true that the Church of Scientology has been successfully using copyright infringement to quench speech against it?

rayiner 13y ago

The entire US music and movie industry is smaller than Apple. Money is not the issue here, except to the extent that the tech industry wants to make money off the content created by the media industry.

bediger4000 13y ago
I think you're correct. Governments, I think, go along with the idea of "intellectual property" because property rights are stronger than free speech rights (usually). Calling ideas "property" gives governments a hope of stuffing the internet's free speech genie back into the lamp.
- rayiner 13y ago
  I don't really see how intellectual property impinges on free speech rights. Governments support IP rights because: 1) the idea that creators have a right to control their works is more popular than the idea that the public has certain rights to access "culture"; 2) industries dependent on IP create jobs. A senator supports the MPAA companies versus downloaders because he can easily see that the MPAA companies are a source of a large number of jobs. It's as simple as that.
  - dublinben 13y ago
    Intellectual property 'rights' are diametrically opposed to free speech rights. Free speech allows you to reproduce copyrighted materials, except the IP rights overrule your speech rights. Free speech allows you to transact under a trademarked brand, but IP rights overrule your speech rights.
    - rayiner 13y ago
      Reproducing other peoples' creative works has none of the relevant characteristics of "speech."
      - bediger4000 13y ago
        Sure, except what about political slogans? Supporting a candidate you like by making your own versions of posters? Oh, wait, that's what Shepard Fairey got in (copyright) trouble for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_%22Hope%22_poster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_%22Hope%22_poster But it's the control over derivative works (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work) that copyright gives you that's more obviously suppressive. All of the uses of Mona Lisa would be derivative, if Da Vinci's estate still owned the "intellectual property". All of the uses of Grant Wood's "American Gothic" would be derivative. Yes, not all "derivative works" are worth it, but neither are most "original" works. 99% of everything is crap. Copyright law is also used to suppress anything that the Rightsholder doesn't like: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/gopro-can-fall-from-planes-with-no-parachute-cant-get-copyright-law/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/gopro-can-fall-fr..., http://www.dailydot.com/business/dentist-bad-yelp-reviews-copyright/ http://www.dailydot.com/business/dentist-bad-yelp-reviews-co... and many others. This may indeed be an abuse of copyright law (copyfraud) but the laws are apparently intentionally written to allow this sort of thing. The practice is to not prosecute improper DMCA takedown notices, for example: http://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=copyfraud http://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=copyfraud So, yes, copyright per se doesn't tend to stifle free speech, but the concept of "intellectual property" gets used to get laws like DMCA passed, which are then promptly abused to censor people and their ideas. Moreover, the practice of lengthening copyright terms towards infinity keeps ideas out of the public domain, causing derivative works to not appear. One more thing: Mickey Mouse Meets the Air Pirates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Pirates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Pirates If that ain't censorship, I don't know what is.
        SEMW 13y ago
        > Copyright law is also used to suppress anything that the Rightsholder doesn't like Neither of the examples you give really support that. GoPro was about trademarks (and was hopeless anyway - it's not really the fault of trademark laws that someone can send a nastygram that's completely without legal merit, using 'trademark violation' as a scary magic word). The dentist one was only worded in terms of copyright so that the dentist could use DMCA takedown notices. You could abolish copyright altogether, and that wouldn't stop a dodgy dentist putting a clause into their patient contract saying 'you can't post bad reviews' and suing people who do. (Obviously it's bad that the DMCA is so easy to abuse, and the DMCA's flaws are well documented on hn - the point is, they're flaws in the DMCA, not in the concept of copyright).
  - pfedor 13y ago
    For example, isn't it true that the Church of Scientology has been successfully using copyright infringement to quench speech against it?