4 ms·

It's a reference to CmdrTaco's impressively off-base assessment of the first iPod: http://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-ipod http://slashdo

by enneff 13y ago

It's a reference to CmdrTaco's impressively off-base assessment of the first iPod: http://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-ipod http://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-ip...

voidlogic 13y ago
haha, thanks :)
icebraining 13y ago
It wasn't really off-base, it's just that his opinion doesn't correlate very well with the general public's. That said, it's fun to read the old thread. I like this comment from dbrutus: Do you want revolutionary? Ask yourself, what chip is this running? Ask yourself, what is the OS on this thing? This is v0.8 of Apple's PDA folks. They're just waiting for the hardware and the economy to get a little better.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >It wasn't really off-base, it's just that his opinion doesn't correlate very well with the general public's. Well, opinions can be off base too. Especially in engineering matters. For example he was totally off base that wireless would be feasible in a 2001 machine, with adequate battery life and performance -- or that it would offer any benefit at the time. He was also totally off base in commenting about the "less space than a nomad" being lame, ignoring the fact that the iPod was also far more pocketable. Plus, he deemed it "lame" (probably just for those two reasons) without even commenting on the vastly improved navigation and user experience compared to everything that was there before. Again, off base.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    > For example he was totally off base that wireless would be feasible in a 2001 machine, with adequate battery life and performance Well I mean, he presumably thought the Nomad was cool, indicating that massive size (nearly a pound!) and shit battery life were not really important to him. The Nokia 9500 came out 3 years later with WiFi and was pretty small, even by today's standards. Could they have put WiFi into a device the size/weight of a Nomad 3 years earlier, and gotten at least some shitty battery life out of it? I suspect so. "Lame-ness" is an opinion, not really something that you could call objectively wrong. (Though obviously I think we all agree that his degree that the iPod was lame was itself lame). Had he said "there is no market for this" instead of merely implying it, then he would have been wrong in a more objective way.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - icebraining 13y ago
    Adequate battery life and perfomance and the importance of pocketability and improved UX are all subjective. (Personally, I always thought iPods had a terrible UX for forcing you to use iTunes instead of just mounting the drive). And that he just took into account those two reasons is just speculation.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >Adequate battery life and perfomance and the importance of pocketability and improved UX are all subjective. It's true that "adequate battery life" does not have a hard, very specific answer, and it's more of a range (and also depends on the capabilities of the era and what users are used to have). But it's still not "all subjective". E.g if somebody says "1 hour mp3 player battery life is totally fine for me" -- doesn't mean he has a valid opinion that people should respect. In fact, he would probably be laughed off any product design meeting. (Sure, it can be fine "for him". But that's like saying "being hit with a stick if fine for me" if you are a masochist. In no way it represents what would work for most people). >Personally, I always thought iPods had a terrible UX for forcing you to use iTunes instead of just mounting the drive That was its definitive advantage. Just mounting the drive would be the backwards option, for people used to manage their own directories instead of letting the computer do it for them. With iTunes they got people to also grasp the concept of file metadata, playlists, arbitrary organization based on tags and smart playlist queries, etc. And it opened the road for work on them offering a Store, iTunes Match et al. >And that he just took into account those two reasons is just speculation. It's based on the only data we have. What he actually said, and the reasons he gave for saying it.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      There is no such thing as "valid or invalid opinions". There are only opinions you agree with or disagree with, or (mistaken or accurate) statements of fact that the speaker is inaccurately calling an opinion ("The moon is made of cheese" is not an opinion, even if the speaker states that it is. Additionally it can be said to be false). CmdrTaco's opinion ("Lame") is an opinion, not a statement of fact masquerading as an opinion, so it is neither valid nor invalid. Most reasonable people would strongly disagree with this opinion.
      - coldtea 13y ago
        >There is no such thing as "valid or invalid opinions". Well, for all practical purposes there is. You're having an underlying premise that personal value/taste judgements cannot by definition be wrong, which I strongly disagree with. It might not be as clear cut as 1+1=2, but that doesn't mean that everything goes. If opinions were such as you suggest (totally separate from judgements of fact and totally divorced from the realm of validity or invalidity), there would be no point in sharing them, because they would be totally irrelevant, irreducible and meaningless to anybody but the person having them. This whole thing is based on the idea of "opinion" as "personal taste beyond critique". Like one happens to like brocolli whereas another likes nachos. Well, in my, err, opinion, even taste for food can be subject to critique. If a food is bad for you, I can say you're wrong to like it. Even if he says "this food is lame FOR ME", one can show him that his "personal taste" is mostly a cultural construction, an effect of early nurture, national cuisine, class, etc. So, it can be "lame for you" just because you don't know any different. >CmdrTaco's opinion ("Lame") is an opinion, not a statement of fact masquerading as an opinion, so it is neither valid nor invalid. There is a thing such as an external reality, and in that reality things have attributes and rankings. If from nothing else, at least from expert and general consensus. And I don't think either the expert's or the general consensus validates his opinion.

by enneff 13y ago

voidlogic 13y ago

haha, thanks :)

icebraining 13y ago

It wasn't really off-base, it's just that his opinion doesn't correlate very well with the general public's. That said, it's fun to read the old thread. I like this comment from dbrutus: Do you want revolutionary? Ask yourself, what chip is this running? Ask yourself, what is the OS on this thing? This is v0.8 of Apple's PDA folks. They're just waiting for the hardware and the economy to get a little better.

coldtea 13y ago
>It wasn't really off-base, it's just that his opinion doesn't correlate very well with the general public's. Well, opinions can be off base too. Especially in engineering matters. For example he was totally off base that wireless would be feasible in a 2001 machine, with adequate battery life and performance -- or that it would offer any benefit at the time. He was also totally off base in commenting about the "less space than a nomad" being lame, ignoring the fact that the iPod was also far more pocketable. Plus, he deemed it "lame" (probably just for those two reasons) without even commenting on the vastly improved navigation and user experience compared to everything that was there before. Again, off base.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > For example he was totally off base that wireless would be feasible in a 2001 machine, with adequate battery life and performance Well I mean, he presumably thought the Nomad was cool, indicating that massive size (nearly a pound!) and shit battery life were not really important to him. The Nokia 9500 came out 3 years later with WiFi and was pretty small, even by today's standards. Could they have put WiFi into a device the size/weight of a Nomad 3 years earlier, and gotten at least some shitty battery life out of it? I suspect so. "Lame-ness" is an opinion, not really something that you could call objectively wrong. (Though obviously I think we all agree that his degree that the iPod was lame was itself lame). Had he said "there is no market for this" instead of merely implying it, then he would have been wrong in a more objective way.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- icebraining 13y ago
  Adequate battery life and perfomance and the importance of pocketability and improved UX are all subjective. (Personally, I always thought iPods had a terrible UX for forcing you to use iTunes instead of just mounting the drive). And that he just took into account those two reasons is just speculation.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >Adequate battery life and perfomance and the importance of pocketability and improved UX are all subjective. It's true that "adequate battery life" does not have a hard, very specific answer, and it's more of a range (and also depends on the capabilities of the era and what users are used to have). But it's still not "all subjective". E.g if somebody says "1 hour mp3 player battery life is totally fine for me" -- doesn't mean he has a valid opinion that people should respect. In fact, he would probably be laughed off any product design meeting. (Sure, it can be fine "for him". But that's like saying "being hit with a stick if fine for me" if you are a masochist. In no way it represents what would work for most people). >Personally, I always thought iPods had a terrible UX for forcing you to use iTunes instead of just mounting the drive That was its definitive advantage. Just mounting the drive would be the backwards option, for people used to manage their own directories instead of letting the computer do it for them. With iTunes they got people to also grasp the concept of file metadata, playlists, arbitrary organization based on tags and smart playlist queries, etc. And it opened the road for work on them offering a Store, iTunes Match et al. >And that he just took into account those two reasons is just speculation. It's based on the only data we have. What he actually said, and the reasons he gave for saying it.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    There is no such thing as "valid or invalid opinions". There are only opinions you agree with or disagree with, or (mistaken or accurate) statements of fact that the speaker is inaccurately calling an opinion ("The moon is made of cheese" is not an opinion, even if the speaker states that it is. Additionally it can be said to be false). CmdrTaco's opinion ("Lame") is an opinion, not a statement of fact masquerading as an opinion, so it is neither valid nor invalid. Most reasonable people would strongly disagree with this opinion.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      >There is no such thing as "valid or invalid opinions". Well, for all practical purposes there is. You're having an underlying premise that personal value/taste judgements cannot by definition be wrong, which I strongly disagree with. It might not be as clear cut as 1+1=2, but that doesn't mean that everything goes. If opinions were such as you suggest (totally separate from judgements of fact and totally divorced from the realm of validity or invalidity), there would be no point in sharing them, because they would be totally irrelevant, irreducible and meaningless to anybody but the person having them. This whole thing is based on the idea of "opinion" as "personal taste beyond critique". Like one happens to like brocolli whereas another likes nachos. Well, in my, err, opinion, even taste for food can be subject to critique. If a food is bad for you, I can say you're wrong to like it. Even if he says "this food is lame FOR ME", one can show him that his "personal taste" is mostly a cultural construction, an effect of early nurture, national cuisine, class, etc. So, it can be "lame for you" just because you don't know any different. >CmdrTaco's opinion ("Lame") is an opinion, not a statement of fact masquerading as an opinion, so it is neither valid nor invalid. There is a thing such as an external reality, and in that reality things have attributes and rankings. If from nothing else, at least from expert and general consensus. And I don't think either the expert's or the general consensus validates his opinion.