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>Technology people want to help an issue, like immigration reform, and instead of saying, "Who are the best people working on this issue, that I can support wit

>Technology people want to help an issue, like immigration reform, and instead of saying, "Who are the best people working on this issue, that I can support with money and time and media?" You show true wisdom, the first thing anyone should do when trying to solve a problem is ask a question(s). I myself have practiced in Immigration Law, and if anyone engages me in conversation about what I would do to "fix" immigration or generally about what I would do with immigration reform, I immediately ask what they think is broken or needs reform, then I can address their concern. The one general rule I can say is treat people with dignity and respect, undocumented immigrants may be in violation of the law, but they are not criminals (unless of course, they are actual convicted criminals), there is an amazing book on this point called Storming the Courts regarding the period we maintained Haitain Refugees at Gitmo to avoid them making a claim for Asylum - and initially the US military treated the refugees like prisoners of war, until another commander took over and before he left he gave all his possessions to the refugees including the shirt off his own back. As far as what I really believe, having nothing to do with reform, is that the US has always had "second class/quasi-citizens" and the US always will have that class - it just so happens undocumented immigrants make up the majority of this class at this time in US history.

jff 13y ago
> undocumented immigrants may be in violation of the law, but they are not criminals Then what, precisely, is the definition of a "criminal" if not someone who violates the law?
- awkward 13y ago
  There are a lot of activities that are illegal but not criminal. Parking infractions, failing to properly permit construction, or smoking marijuana in a state where it is decriminalized (but not legalized) will result in a fine or other corrective action, but no arrest or jail time.
- saalweachter 13y ago
  Eh, definitions are not always useful. The argument is precisely over whether immigration should be criminalized, so just pointing out that it is currently criminalized is begging the question. The sodomy laws in Texas were struck down by the Supreme Court in 2003; do you consider everyone who had anal sex in 2002 in Texas to be criminals?
  - jff 13y ago
    Immigration is not criminalized; illegal immigration is. Is current immigration law perfect? Certainly not, but when someone violates a bad law, he is still in violation of the law. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Immigration_laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_Unit..., illegal immigration may be punishable by "criminal fines and penalties" including jail time. That sounds an awful lot like "it is a crime to illegally enter the country". "Criminal", the noun, is defined as "A person who is guilty of a crime, notably breaking the law." Sodomy laws may be stupid, but that does not change the fact that until 2003, numerous people were guilty of committing the crime of sodomy in the state of Texas.
    - will_brown 13y ago
      >That sounds an awful lot like "it is a crime to illegally enter the country" I think your position is shared by many if not most, but that does not make it a crime, it just encourages and justifies treating undocumented immigrants as criminals. For example the wikipedia article you cite, cites section a.) of 8 USC § 1325 - Improper entry by alien, but if you actually read the code it continues to section b.) it continues...Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of— (see: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325) >Immigration is not criminalized; illegal immigration is It is not criminal. It is civil in nature, just like a speeding ticket is not criminal it is civil but results in fines. The imprisonment is a little misleading, because undocumented, or even documented, immigrants facing removal proceedings (deportation for the layman) can be held in "detention centers" during the proceedings, so while in fact they are similar to jails or prisons, legally they are not. I have even had cases where my client was staying at a hotel (paid by the government) during the removal proceeding bc the detention center had no more open beds. The reality is many immigrants are eligible to "elect voluntary removal" if they can purchase their own travel out of the country and generally the Government agrees and allows them to voluntarily depart without having to go through the proceedings/detention. >"Criminal", the noun, is defined as "A person who is guilty of a crime, notably breaking the law." The key is guilty of a crime, but immigration status is not a crime it is a civil issue.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

jff 13y ago

> undocumented immigrants may be in violation of the law, but they are not criminals Then what, precisely, is the definition of a "criminal" if not someone who violates the law?

awkward 13y ago
There are a lot of activities that are illegal but not criminal. Parking infractions, failing to properly permit construction, or smoking marijuana in a state where it is decriminalized (but not legalized) will result in a fine or other corrective action, but no arrest or jail time.
saalweachter 13y ago
Eh, definitions are not always useful. The argument is precisely over whether immigration should be criminalized, so just pointing out that it is currently criminalized is begging the question. The sodomy laws in Texas were struck down by the Supreme Court in 2003; do you consider everyone who had anal sex in 2002 in Texas to be criminals?
- jff 13y ago
  Immigration is not criminalized; illegal immigration is. Is current immigration law perfect? Certainly not, but when someone violates a bad law, he is still in violation of the law. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Immigration_laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_Unit..., illegal immigration may be punishable by "criminal fines and penalties" including jail time. That sounds an awful lot like "it is a crime to illegally enter the country". "Criminal", the noun, is defined as "A person who is guilty of a crime, notably breaking the law." Sodomy laws may be stupid, but that does not change the fact that until 2003, numerous people were guilty of committing the crime of sodomy in the state of Texas.
  - will_brown 13y ago
    >That sounds an awful lot like "it is a crime to illegally enter the country" I think your position is shared by many if not most, but that does not make it a crime, it just encourages and justifies treating undocumented immigrants as criminals. For example the wikipedia article you cite, cites section a.) of 8 USC § 1325 - Improper entry by alien, but if you actually read the code it continues to section b.) it continues...Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of— (see: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325) >Immigration is not criminalized; illegal immigration is It is not criminal. It is civil in nature, just like a speeding ticket is not criminal it is civil but results in fines. The imprisonment is a little misleading, because undocumented, or even documented, immigrants facing removal proceedings (deportation for the layman) can be held in "detention centers" during the proceedings, so while in fact they are similar to jails or prisons, legally they are not. I have even had cases where my client was staying at a hotel (paid by the government) during the removal proceeding bc the detention center had no more open beds. The reality is many immigrants are eligible to "elect voluntary removal" if they can purchase their own travel out of the country and generally the Government agrees and allows them to voluntarily depart without having to go through the proceedings/detention. >"Criminal", the noun, is defined as "A person who is guilty of a crime, notably breaking the law." The key is guilty of a crime, but immigration status is not a crime it is a civil issue.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]