5 ms·

> You will never be a Sheryl Sandberg if you've dealt with a true workplace bully, and at least 90% of people get hit at least once in the first 10 years. Your

by jbattle 13y ago

> You will never be a Sheryl Sandberg if you've dealt with a true workplace bully, and at least 90% of people get hit at least once in the first 10 years. Your reputation and career history are too damaged, and you really can't "start over" because every achievement is age-graded. So do you really believe that workplace bullies are so universally powerful that it is quite nearly impossible to prevent them from ruining one's career? I recognize your posts immediately and appreciate your iconoclasm, but this assertion seems quite at odds with what I've seen. I've worked with, for and around a few bullies/assholes (though certainly not at every job). I've seen literally one or two people get caught in the maelstrom and be unable to escape, but most people either work around the jerks. Sometimes if it gets bad enough people change jobs (probably getting a raise to boot)

michaelochurch 13y ago
There are different kinds of assholes and bullies. Also, they aren't the same thing. The boss who loses his temper a lot but doesn't engage in prolonged campaigns of harassment is the archetypical "asshole" boss, but not a bully. People realize he's a "Volcano" (see here: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/gervais-macleod-23-managers-mentors-executives-cops-and-thugs/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/gervais-macle... ) and his credibility drops, so he is really only a danger to himself after a while. As long as you can tolerate superficial verbal abuse (and not everyone can, but I can deal with it at this point in my life) you're not at major risk of long-term career harm from the Volcano/Cartoon Asshole. The asshole wants, out of work, things that normal people want (money, prestige, accomplishment, progress) and just goes about getting them in an emotionally retarded way. He can't persuade people or lead, so he falls back on abuse, but he doesn't actually enjoy hurting people (he might not care much about others' emotions, or he might be utterly blind to his effects on other people, but he's not sadistic). Bullies are different; they actually enjoy destroying people. They like abusing power even more than they like getting rich or climbing the ranks. Assholes can be worked around. Even if one gets you fired, your reputation will usually be intact. In fact, you're likely to get sympathy because people who know their reputations are impressed that you held out for that long. "Really? You worked for him for 15 months?" Bullies are different, in that they deliberately ruin your reputation, and because they're selective in their choices of whom to attack, they keep their credibility intact. Workplace bullies know that they can only target a small number of people, and only the socially weak (new guys, young people, women) and they're superficially nice to everyone else, so they end up with sterling reputations. Bullies are nice to everyone except the people they perceive as being weak. The danger is that most people will have moments of (usually transient) weakness. A bully boss can turn transient weakness (a health problem, a failed startup, child-raising complications) into a permanent career smear. I worked for one of these at Google. He was superficially very nice, but he sabotaged people. I investigated him quite a bit while I was there, and after I left, got access to a bunch of shit I shouldn't have been able to see. He had an HR record as long as my forearm of using fake performance problems to tease out reports' health problems, rescheduling meetings to conflict with peoples' medical appointments; but HR did nothing because he had a superb reputation for "delivery" on projects (mostly because he was a great blame-shifter). I was weak at the time because I was coming off of a failed startup. Had it not been for that, I doubt I would have been his target. Also, it's a misconception that a workplace bully is only going to do typical boss things in the nastiest way. They deliberately interfere with work performance. Bully bosses don't let you go off and do great things but give negative reviews. (That's an asshole boss having a shitty day.) They actively make it impossible for you to perform, so it looks like you melted down and that they had nothing to do with it. Yes, if you're attacked by one of these, you're off the Sheryl Sandberg track for good. It doesn't mean that you'll never have a decent career. It does mean that you're out of the running for CxO implants into existing enterprises-- you need a smear-free career history for that, unless you go full-on Don Draper-- and now that VC-istan is fully corporate, you're probably not fundable either.
- enneff 13y ago
  > I worked for one of these at Google. I just want to remind anyone reading this that there are many sides to any story. I am truly impressed by how much mileage the parent poster has gotten from his negative experience at Google, but I think it would be a grave mistake to take his claims at face value.
  - michaelochurch 13y ago
    I am truly impressed by how much mileage the parent poster has gotten from his negative experience at Google Are you fucking kidding me? I would be far ahead of where I am right now if I hadn't had that misadventure. That spell (and its aftermath, including the horrible startup where I landed afterward) took 3 years off my career, easily. HN karma doesn't come close to buying that back. I'm still owed.

by jbattle 13y ago

michaelochurch 13y ago

There are different kinds of assholes and bullies. Also, they aren't the same thing. The boss who loses his temper a lot but doesn't engage in prolonged campaigns of harassment is the archetypical "asshole" boss, but not a bully. People realize he's a "Volcano" (see here: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/gervais-macleod-23-managers-mentors-executives-cops-and-thugs/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/gervais-macle... ) and his credibility drops, so he is really only a danger to himself after a while. As long as you can tolerate superficial verbal abuse (and not everyone can, but I can deal with it at this point in my life) you're not at major risk of long-term career harm from the Volcano/Cartoon Asshole. The asshole wants, out of work, things that normal people want (money, prestige, accomplishment, progress) and just goes about getting them in an emotionally retarded way. He can't persuade people or lead, so he falls back on abuse, but he doesn't actually enjoy hurting people (he might not care much about others' emotions, or he might be utterly blind to his effects on other people, but he's not sadistic). Bullies are different; they actually enjoy destroying people. They like abusing power even more than they like getting rich or climbing the ranks. Assholes can be worked around. Even if one gets you fired, your reputation will usually be intact. In fact, you're likely to get sympathy because people who know their reputations are impressed that you held out for that long. "Really? You worked for him for 15 months?" Bullies are different, in that they deliberately ruin your reputation, and because they're selective in their choices of whom to attack, they keep their credibility intact. Workplace bullies know that they can only target a small number of people, and only the socially weak (new guys, young people, women) and they're superficially nice to everyone else, so they end up with sterling reputations. Bullies are nice to everyone except the people they perceive as being weak. The danger is that most people will have moments of (usually transient) weakness. A bully boss can turn transient weakness (a health problem, a failed startup, child-raising complications) into a permanent career smear. I worked for one of these at Google. He was superficially very nice, but he sabotaged people. I investigated him quite a bit while I was there, and after I left, got access to a bunch of shit I shouldn't have been able to see. He had an HR record as long as my forearm of using fake performance problems to tease out reports' health problems, rescheduling meetings to conflict with peoples' medical appointments; but HR did nothing because he had a superb reputation for "delivery" on projects (mostly because he was a great blame-shifter). I was weak at the time because I was coming off of a failed startup. Had it not been for that, I doubt I would have been his target. Also, it's a misconception that a workplace bully is only going to do typical boss things in the nastiest way. They deliberately interfere with work performance. Bully bosses don't let you go off and do great things but give negative reviews. (That's an asshole boss having a shitty day.) They actively make it impossible for you to perform, so it looks like you melted down and that they had nothing to do with it. Yes, if you're attacked by one of these, you're off the Sheryl Sandberg track for good. It doesn't mean that you'll never have a decent career. It does mean that you're out of the running for CxO implants into existing enterprises-- you need a smear-free career history for that, unless you go full-on Don Draper-- and now that VC-istan is fully corporate, you're probably not fundable either.

enneff 13y ago
> I worked for one of these at Google. I just want to remind anyone reading this that there are many sides to any story. I am truly impressed by how much mileage the parent poster has gotten from his negative experience at Google, but I think it would be a grave mistake to take his claims at face value.
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  I am truly impressed by how much mileage the parent poster has gotten from his negative experience at Google Are you fucking kidding me? I would be far ahead of where I am right now if I hadn't had that misadventure. That spell (and its aftermath, including the horrible startup where I landed afterward) took 3 years off my career, easily. HN karma doesn't come close to buying that back. I'm still owed.