10 ms·

Why Programmers Suck at CSS Design

106 points by urlwolf 18y ago

DenisM 18y ago
dup http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=345782 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=345782
- windsurfer 18y ago
  What is this, digg? So what if it's a duplicate? I am here to discuss with fellow HNers as much as for reading interesting articles. Also, I joined only 133 days ago, long after this article was on the front page.
  - wayne 18y ago
    It's good to know about dupes. If nothing else, if you're interested in the article you can read the HN comments on the other page.
    - windsurfer 18y ago
      True, good point. You still lack the ability to discuss, though.
      - access_denied 18y ago
        Yes one should be able to subscribe to one topic even if one didn't enter into to discussion.
  - DenisM 18y ago
    The OP was informing the audience that this was submitted before. This is useful so that those who have seen it already (the majority) can recognize it and possibly move on, and others could go read up on the previous comments - accumulating knowledge rather than rehashing it is the basic tenet of progress. Kindly calm down and refrain from acting out based on things you have imagined the post says.
braindead_in 18y ago
great tips!
systems 18y ago
My experience is that the same programmers who suck at CSS design, are the same who suck at GUI design, and the same who suck at creating modular code , and the same who hardly ever indent their code, and the same who write spaghetti code, ... and the same programmers who thinks that if it runs, its good ... and the same who are just not good programmers. Think about it, if you are a generally good programmer, you would never create a bad UI, CSS or otherwise! ... Linus Torvalds as far as I know don't create UIs, he is a very good programmer too
rue 18y ago
The post actually contained some very good tips for any beginning designer, although the title does the article a disservice ("Why Do Web Designers Suck at Programming?")
- enneff 18y ago
  I am REALLY tired of these "why x suck at y" articles. Are these bloggers so devoid of inspiration or creativity? Honestly I find this particular title offensive as I'm a programmer who is frequently forced to fix the broken CSS of so-called "designers".
jerryji 18y ago
Because some do not care enough about other users' experience -- like didn't bother submitting the proper permalink at the bottom of the page.
- briansmith 18y ago
  Blame the website designer as much as the submitter. Submitters shouldn't have to think about "permalinks".
BonsaiKitt3n 18y ago
Good tips in there but just for SEO I would ignore the table-based layout tip, learn to <div and <ul
sh1mmer 18y ago
You still shouldn't use @import, which is a designer sucking programming. @import can cause FOUC as well as slowing down page render a lot.
- woodsier 18y ago
  I had a good chuckle when that was essentially the first tip.
- addicttostress 18y ago
  As a reference: http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2009/04/09/dont-use-import/ http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2009/04/09/dont-use-import/ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=559804 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=559804
satyajit 18y ago
Let's face it. CSS design is a visual art, and not every programmer is good at it. You either have it or don't. I have seen many programmers who do a fine job with CSS.
- TJensen 18y ago
  I think the article nailed it in that most programmers think they aren't any good because they have no clue where to start. With no training and a non-obvious technique (and perhaps some intimidation at trying and failing), programmers just say "I can't do it." I would bet most programmers could do an OK job at designing things (at least, not painful :). But great design is still talent that has to be worked at, and I think it is hard for anybody to get to that point without devoting him/herself to it (and probably having innate talent as well).
intranation 18y ago
In the article he mentions using @import over LINK due to some convoluted logic about "easier to re-use". LINK and @import behave exactly the same, except the well-known performance issues. Why should we trust someone who doesn't actually understand browsers?
- joechung 18y ago
  LINK and @import don't behave the same. LINK styles are evaluated in document order. Evaluation of @import styles is deferred until the end of the document.
  - intranation 18y ago
    See my caveat: "well-known performance issues".
    - joechung 18y ago
      They're not semantically the same either though so it's not just a performance issue.
Hexstream 18y ago
For color picking, HSV is very much better than RGB. With HSV though, I still don't have a good intuition for Saturation VS Value tuning so it seems there could be an even better color system. Munsell appears to be that system, however there doesn't seem to be any public description of it that would allow one to implement it so you have to use some proprietary crap. I think that's a real loss for humanity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSV_color_space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSV_color_space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell
edw519 18y ago
Give your page some air Always my biggest problem. Being a natural maximizer (as many programmers are), I can't stand non-performing real estate. It's taking me a long time to understand that white space is performing, just not the same way that code performs.
- whatusername 18y ago
  Maybe you should use Python more often - then white space does perform!
- TJensen 18y ago
  I tend to think of the anti-pattern of this: Jira. That always makes it easy for me to open my pages up.
- juanpablo 18y ago
  What works for me is to think that white space isn't "empty space" but instead "space filled with white".
whalesalad 18y ago
Permalink just in case... http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/169/ http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/169/
arjungmenon 18y ago
Programmers don't suck at CSS Design, it's Stefano's stereotype of programmers that do.
jhancock 18y ago
I fit the stereotype. compass has saved me http://github.com/chriseppstein/compass/tree/master http://github.com/chriseppstein/compass/tree/master With compass I get a programmer's mindset and lots of predefined typography goodness. It still takes lots of work, but I have been able to produce a clean site now.
thristian 18y ago
"Some browsers ship with default stylesheets that are simply horrible. One notorious problem, for example, is the <table> tag that forgets to inherit font settings from its parents." That's not 'bumbling browser makers can't create sensible default stylesheets', that's 'pages in quirks mode duplicate the oddities of Netscape 4 as closely as possible'. Use a DOCTYPE that triggers standards mode, validate your HTML and you'll find a lot of CSS things get much easier.
tjogin 18y ago
Programmers suck at design because it isn't programming, it's design.

106 points by urlwolf 18y ago

DenisM 18y ago

dup http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=345782 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=345782

windsurfer 18y ago
What is this, digg? So what if it's a duplicate? I am here to discuss with fellow HNers as much as for reading interesting articles. Also, I joined only 133 days ago, long after this article was on the front page.
- wayne 18y ago
  It's good to know about dupes. If nothing else, if you're interested in the article you can read the HN comments on the other page.
  - windsurfer 18y ago
    True, good point. You still lack the ability to discuss, though.
    - access_denied 18y ago
      Yes one should be able to subscribe to one topic even if one didn't enter into to discussion.
- DenisM 18y ago
  The OP was informing the audience that this was submitted before. This is useful so that those who have seen it already (the majority) can recognize it and possibly move on, and others could go read up on the previous comments - accumulating knowledge rather than rehashing it is the basic tenet of progress. Kindly calm down and refrain from acting out based on things you have imagined the post says.

braindead_in 18y ago

great tips!

systems 18y ago

My experience is that the same programmers who suck at CSS design, are the same who suck at GUI design, and the same who suck at creating modular code , and the same who hardly ever indent their code, and the same who write spaghetti code, ... and the same programmers who thinks that if it runs, its good ... and the same who are just not good programmers. Think about it, if you are a generally good programmer, you would never create a bad UI, CSS or otherwise! ... Linus Torvalds as far as I know don't create UIs, he is a very good programmer too

rue 18y ago

The post actually contained some very good tips for any beginning designer, although the title does the article a disservice ("Why Do Web Designers Suck at Programming?")

enneff 18y ago
I am REALLY tired of these "why x suck at y" articles. Are these bloggers so devoid of inspiration or creativity? Honestly I find this particular title offensive as I'm a programmer who is frequently forced to fix the broken CSS of so-called "designers".

jerryji 18y ago

Because some do not care enough about other users' experience -- like didn't bother submitting the proper permalink at the bottom of the page.

briansmith 18y ago
Blame the website designer as much as the submitter. Submitters shouldn't have to think about "permalinks".

BonsaiKitt3n 18y ago

Good tips in there but just for SEO I would ignore the table-based layout tip, learn to <div and <ul

sh1mmer 18y ago

You still shouldn't use @import, which is a designer sucking programming. @import can cause FOUC as well as slowing down page render a lot.

woodsier 18y ago
I had a good chuckle when that was essentially the first tip.
addicttostress 18y ago
As a reference: http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2009/04/09/dont-use-import/ http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2009/04/09/dont-use-import/ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=559804 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=559804

satyajit 18y ago

Let's face it. CSS design is a visual art, and not every programmer is good at it. You either have it or don't. I have seen many programmers who do a fine job with CSS.

TJensen 18y ago
I think the article nailed it in that most programmers think they aren't any good because they have no clue where to start. With no training and a non-obvious technique (and perhaps some intimidation at trying and failing), programmers just say "I can't do it." I would bet most programmers could do an OK job at designing things (at least, not painful :). But great design is still talent that has to be worked at, and I think it is hard for anybody to get to that point without devoting him/herself to it (and probably having innate talent as well).

intranation 18y ago

In the article he mentions using @import over LINK due to some convoluted logic about "easier to re-use". LINK and @import behave exactly the same, except the well-known performance issues. Why should we trust someone who doesn't actually understand browsers?

joechung 18y ago
LINK and @import don't behave the same. LINK styles are evaluated in document order. Evaluation of @import styles is deferred until the end of the document.
- intranation 18y ago
  See my caveat: "well-known performance issues".
  - joechung 18y ago
    They're not semantically the same either though so it's not just a performance issue.

Hexstream 18y ago

For color picking, HSV is very much better than RGB. With HSV though, I still don't have a good intuition for Saturation VS Value tuning so it seems there could be an even better color system. Munsell appears to be that system, however there doesn't seem to be any public description of it that would allow one to implement it so you have to use some proprietary crap. I think that's a real loss for humanity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSV_color_space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSV_color_space http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell

edw519 18y ago

Give your page some air Always my biggest problem. Being a natural maximizer (as many programmers are), I can't stand non-performing real estate. It's taking me a long time to understand that white space is performing, just not the same way that code performs.

whatusername 18y ago
Maybe you should use Python more often - then white space does perform!
TJensen 18y ago
I tend to think of the anti-pattern of this: Jira. That always makes it easy for me to open my pages up.
juanpablo 18y ago
What works for me is to think that white space isn't "empty space" but instead "space filled with white".

whalesalad 18y ago

Permalink just in case... http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/169/ http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/169/

arjungmenon 18y ago

Programmers don't suck at CSS Design, it's Stefano's stereotype of programmers that do.

jhancock 18y ago

I fit the stereotype. compass has saved me http://github.com/chriseppstein/compass/tree/master http://github.com/chriseppstein/compass/tree/master With compass I get a programmer's mindset and lots of predefined typography goodness. It still takes lots of work, but I have been able to produce a clean site now.

thristian 18y ago

"Some browsers ship with default stylesheets that are simply horrible. One notorious problem, for example, is the <table> tag that forgets to inherit font settings from its parents." That's not 'bumbling browser makers can't create sensible default stylesheets', that's 'pages in quirks mode duplicate the oddities of Netscape 4 as closely as possible'. Use a DOCTYPE that triggers standards mode, validate your HTML and you'll find a lot of CSS things get much easier.

tjogin 18y ago

Programmers suck at design because it isn't programming, it's design.