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Ask HN: My Dog is About to Die... How Can I Preserve Her DNA??

My dog has cancer and probably won't make it through the week. I know just about everyone feels this way about their pets, but she really is an exceptional dog. I would like to preserve her DNA in order to keep open the possibility of cloning her some day. The majority of cloning sample preservation services require anesthesia and a biopsy, which I simply won't do to her at this point. Also, for older dogs, my impression is that the skin cell samples that would be preserved might not be of a great quality. To be clear, I would never dream of moving forward with existing cloning technologies. It would clearly be unethical at this stage. However, I think there's a very good chance that in the coming decades the safety concerns will be resolved, and the technologies will advance to the point where a healthy clone could be created from just DNA samples, and not require a biopsied skin sample. So far, I've used a couple of DNA banking services to keep some samples: http://www.genetrackus.com/tests/dna-banking http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-dna-banking.html http://www.fluffy2.com I'd like to get any knowledgeable opinions on how I might be able to preserve some viable samples on my own as a failsafe, because I'm not entirely comfortable relying on these services for a decade or more. I'm thinking some fur samples with follicles intact, sealed in airtight plastic, and maybe placed in the freezer? Also, just to hopefully ease one concern I might hear about, I donate generously to the Humane Society and other animal focused charities, and plan on donating the equivalent of whatever I spend on cloning services in the future. Assuming the technology advances to where there wouldn't be any health concerns, I don't view this as anything worse than ordering a dog from a breeder.

mikecane 13y ago
Life is not like a TV repeat. Whatever made your dog -- experiences, reactions, etc -- was unique. You would expect what your dog ultimately became to be in the clone too. And that's just unfair to the clone. It'd be like expecting identical twins to actually be identical, beneath their appearance. Also, even if the clone did magically repeat your dog, you wouldn't be the same. I've been through this many times. Know when to just let go.
- throwawayfetch 13y ago
  Thanks for replying. I've thought quite a bit about this, and I agree with you somewhat. I certainly don't have unrealistic expectations of the exact same dog being reborn. However, there is obviously a nature/nuture question here, and I think with a very similar upbringing/training, the dog could certainly be very similar, but I'd feel very lucky just to have a similar dog, and certainly wouldn't put a ton of pressure towards her in her upbringing. At any rate, I obviously haven't made the final decision to go forward with it - as I mentioned, not until things advance quite a bit - I just want to make sure I have the option.
  - mikecane 13y ago
    But the world would not be the same. Let me give you a somewhat silly example. In the TV series UFO, a moon to earth shuttle crashed. Sabotage was suspected. A pilot said he'd fly the same route to see if anything was there to sabotage a flight. Well, that's just impossible. The earth is in a different position in relation the the sun, the moon is in a different spot in relation to both the earth and sun, and the entire solar system has moved in relation to the galaxy and the universe. To paraphrase a saying, it's never the same river twice. The entire environment the clone would be in would be drastically different than the one the original was in, so it'd really be impossible to get a truly identical experience. And a dog's senses are different than a human's. What you would never notice as a significant change the dog probably would -- and that too would have an effect.
musiic703 13y ago
This is retarded get another dog
dsl 13y ago
The websites you have mentioned are "feel good" services targeted at grieving consumers, but are unlikely to produce viable samples down the road. Regardless of the advancements in science down the road, a biopsy is required now to produce a sample that can be cryogenically preserved given current technology. Cryogenics is not something you can do at home, at comes with quite the price tag. Three things to look for to help find a legitimate vendor: 1. Should not offer human/primate sampling, banking, or storage. 2. Should not accept deceased samples except by special case. 3. Should require a veterinary specialist, no do it yourself kits.
xauronx 13y ago
Life is transient, and many times that's what makes it great.
brudgers 13y ago
Wittgenstein died on a Monday in February. Sunday morning he took me for his last walk - down the hill to the grassy place, he struggled exceptionally to make it back up. When we returned from the Soccer game that evening, he needed the Bottom's Up lead for the first time to make it to the dead end. Before we went inside he showed me he could no longer make it up the steep hill even with his butt in a sling. Then he came inside, and laid down. When he started struggling in pain, we gave him doggy valium. In the morning Dr. Pete gave him the injection slowly. He went peacefully. After his heart had stopped, he breathed three times, and moved his paw for me to hold. When I let it go, he was gone. Saying goodbye was his final gift to me. At nearly fifteen years and 100 pounds, he had a long life - still walking me more than a mile most days into his last week. He wasn't supposed to enjoy life much past 8 - he had dysplasia. Then again, at six months he was given to the pound, too big to handle, or nixing the owner's lease. I went because I had lost Bo. The pound is tough. That's where I had gotten Missy [ocasionally referred to as my first wife]. I knew I needed a sign and his standing at full 5'-6" stretch looking over the back of the kennel as I walked through the door, was it. He'd just had a bath. In March 1968, we moved from an apartment to a house in the suburbs. In April we got Ringo. Ringo was my father's first dog as an adult. Knee-high, he could pull the suction cup ball off the ceiling - the dog not my father. I have some of Bo's ashes still. All I have of Missy is the fur stuck in her collar. Witty's ashes are in my son's room. We will spread them at Cape San Blas. I share your grief. http://brudgers.com/arefaq/arefaq-public-docs/WP_000108.jpg http://brudgers.com/arefaq/arefaq-public-docs/WP_000108.jpg
ksherlock 13y ago
There was a story on This American Life a while back about a Chance, the unusually tame bull. He died, they cloned him. The result: Pet Semetary. Your cloned dog probably won't stomp you to death, but it wouldn't be the same dog, it would be a sibling. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/291/transcript http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/291/t... http://animalinventory.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/did-chance-the-bull-get-a-second-chance/ http://animalinventory.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/did-chance-t...
- 27182818284 13y ago
  I remember when I first listened to that episode. It was fascinating to hear about the second bull having none of the same qualities. Even with that caveat the futurist in me says do it so we have more data points.
dear 13y ago
It will not be the same dog even if it has the same DNA. It may not even have the same physical appearance. What you miss is this particular individual. There is no way you can recreate this individual. Either get a dog from the same lineage, or adopt an unfortunate one from a shelter.
Lozera 13y ago
I had a cat who got cancer and died within 9 months after surgery failed to remove the cancer. As heartbreaking as it is to see your beloved pet die and leave you forever, remember that many more die each day just for occupying space in a pet shelter. Not pressuring you to go and adopt ten dogs/cats after your dog dies, but keep in mind that cloning is a bit extreme and there are better alternatives out there for having a furry companion. I've done a ton of studies in microbiology, you don't even need a 101 in biology to see how random and unpredictable life can be. Genetics will not guarantee you are getting the same dog back. Even if you get an exact copy, the experiences the dog gets will change its outcomes, and will make it a different dog. There's also something called epigenetics (changes in genes throughout your life), it's another reason why twin develop differences after birth. Losing a pet can be tragic, but don't let grief push you in the wrong direction. The death of my old cat eventually led me to the adoption of my current cat, who is grateful that I rescued him from off of the streets.

mikecane 13y ago

Life is not like a TV repeat. Whatever made your dog -- experiences, reactions, etc -- was unique. You would expect what your dog ultimately became to be in the clone too. And that's just unfair to the clone. It'd be like expecting identical twins to actually be identical, beneath their appearance. Also, even if the clone did magically repeat your dog, you wouldn't be the same. I've been through this many times. Know when to just let go.

throwawayfetch 13y ago
Thanks for replying. I've thought quite a bit about this, and I agree with you somewhat. I certainly don't have unrealistic expectations of the exact same dog being reborn. However, there is obviously a nature/nuture question here, and I think with a very similar upbringing/training, the dog could certainly be very similar, but I'd feel very lucky just to have a similar dog, and certainly wouldn't put a ton of pressure towards her in her upbringing. At any rate, I obviously haven't made the final decision to go forward with it - as I mentioned, not until things advance quite a bit - I just want to make sure I have the option.
- mikecane 13y ago
  But the world would not be the same. Let me give you a somewhat silly example. In the TV series UFO, a moon to earth shuttle crashed. Sabotage was suspected. A pilot said he'd fly the same route to see if anything was there to sabotage a flight. Well, that's just impossible. The earth is in a different position in relation the the sun, the moon is in a different spot in relation to both the earth and sun, and the entire solar system has moved in relation to the galaxy and the universe. To paraphrase a saying, it's never the same river twice. The entire environment the clone would be in would be drastically different than the one the original was in, so it'd really be impossible to get a truly identical experience. And a dog's senses are different than a human's. What you would never notice as a significant change the dog probably would -- and that too would have an effect.

musiic703 13y ago

This is retarded get another dog

dsl 13y ago

The websites you have mentioned are "feel good" services targeted at grieving consumers, but are unlikely to produce viable samples down the road. Regardless of the advancements in science down the road, a biopsy is required now to produce a sample that can be cryogenically preserved given current technology. Cryogenics is not something you can do at home, at comes with quite the price tag. Three things to look for to help find a legitimate vendor: 1. Should not offer human/primate sampling, banking, or storage. 2. Should not accept deceased samples except by special case. 3. Should require a veterinary specialist, no do it yourself kits.

xauronx 13y ago

Life is transient, and many times that's what makes it great.

brudgers 13y ago

Wittgenstein died on a Monday in February. Sunday morning he took me for his last walk - down the hill to the grassy place, he struggled exceptionally to make it back up. When we returned from the Soccer game that evening, he needed the Bottom's Up lead for the first time to make it to the dead end. Before we went inside he showed me he could no longer make it up the steep hill even with his butt in a sling. Then he came inside, and laid down. When he started struggling in pain, we gave him doggy valium. In the morning Dr. Pete gave him the injection slowly. He went peacefully. After his heart had stopped, he breathed three times, and moved his paw for me to hold. When I let it go, he was gone. Saying goodbye was his final gift to me. At nearly fifteen years and 100 pounds, he had a long life - still walking me more than a mile most days into his last week. He wasn't supposed to enjoy life much past 8 - he had dysplasia. Then again, at six months he was given to the pound, too big to handle, or nixing the owner's lease. I went because I had lost Bo. The pound is tough. That's where I had gotten Missy [ocasionally referred to as my first wife]. I knew I needed a sign and his standing at full 5'-6" stretch looking over the back of the kennel as I walked through the door, was it. He'd just had a bath. In March 1968, we moved from an apartment to a house in the suburbs. In April we got Ringo. Ringo was my father's first dog as an adult. Knee-high, he could pull the suction cup ball off the ceiling - the dog not my father. I have some of Bo's ashes still. All I have of Missy is the fur stuck in her collar. Witty's ashes are in my son's room. We will spread them at Cape San Blas. I share your grief. http://brudgers.com/arefaq/arefaq-public-docs/WP_000108.jpg http://brudgers.com/arefaq/arefaq-public-docs/WP_000108.jpg

ksherlock 13y ago

There was a story on This American Life a while back about a Chance, the unusually tame bull. He died, they cloned him. The result: Pet Semetary. Your cloned dog probably won't stomp you to death, but it wouldn't be the same dog, it would be a sibling. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/291/transcript http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/291/t... http://animalinventory.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/did-chance-the-bull-get-a-second-chance/ http://animalinventory.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/did-chance-t...

27182818284 13y ago
I remember when I first listened to that episode. It was fascinating to hear about the second bull having none of the same qualities. Even with that caveat the futurist in me says do it so we have more data points.

dear 13y ago

It will not be the same dog even if it has the same DNA. It may not even have the same physical appearance. What you miss is this particular individual. There is no way you can recreate this individual. Either get a dog from the same lineage, or adopt an unfortunate one from a shelter.

Lozera 13y ago

I had a cat who got cancer and died within 9 months after surgery failed to remove the cancer. As heartbreaking as it is to see your beloved pet die and leave you forever, remember that many more die each day just for occupying space in a pet shelter. Not pressuring you to go and adopt ten dogs/cats after your dog dies, but keep in mind that cloning is a bit extreme and there are better alternatives out there for having a furry companion. I've done a ton of studies in microbiology, you don't even need a 101 in biology to see how random and unpredictable life can be. Genetics will not guarantee you are getting the same dog back. Even if you get an exact copy, the experiences the dog gets will change its outcomes, and will make it a different dog. There's also something called epigenetics (changes in genes throughout your life), it's another reason why twin develop differences after birth. Losing a pet can be tragic, but don't let grief push you in the wrong direction. The death of my old cat eventually led me to the adoption of my current cat, who is grateful that I rescued him from off of the streets.