4 ms·

Incorrect- don't read quotes to get the meaning of what Raskin wrote. READ HIS BOOK. 1. Objectively bad not by definition, but by MEASUREMENT. and Experiment.

Incorrect- don't read quotes to get the meaning of what Raskin wrote. READ HIS BOOK. 1. Objectively bad not by definition, but by MEASUREMENT. and Experiment. Yes, UI quality can be objectively measured. Read the book. 2. That wouldn't fix VIM's problems. it would make them worse. READ THE BOOK.

aangjie 13y ago
Am sorry, i just have to reply to this. Disclaimer: I use vim. Anti-disclaimer?: I spent two years studying cognitive science and one of my electives was HCI.(though i wasn't excited about it to be honest :P) By measurement of what? UI quality? what is it's operational/measurable definition. I suspect modes are unavoidable to deliver the kind of power vim does (over text editing )with only keystrokes. P.S: That said, i think it's a very sad thing that we can't have that joystick at the centre for the keyboard(in the home row, like in thinkpads) for all laptop keyboards.
- TheZenPsycho 13y ago
  It's quite a simple matter to measure /rates of error/ in modal interfaces versus non-modal interfaces. This may seem trivial for text editors in particular, but modal errors are a big cause of aeronautical accidents (and deaths), so even one error is too many in that case. And if you can avoid errors in cases where they are life threatening, why wouldn't you want to avoid errors everywhere else?
  - aangjie 13y ago
    I agree low error rates are the most critical quality measure in aeronautical accidents. Am just not sure i would use that measure for text editors. If i have to operationalize my previous comment, i would say, i care about the amount of time i spend hitting the keys compared to the amount of time i spend moving around the mouse. I suppose that's not what everyone wants and in the examples the OP gives he has a point.I agree completely on the car audio part, not sure about photoshop(not much experience designing), but have some frustrating experiences with photoshop to suspect he's right.
derleth 13y ago
Raskin... wasn't he the one who said configurability is evil and shouldn't be allowed?
- TheZenPsycho 13y ago
  Yep. And he was correct when he said that. And he is still correct.
  - derleth 13y ago
    And how did Raskin, who I have never met and who is dead now anyway, know my mind well enough to know how I work best?
    - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
      Interface design is not an entirely subjective thing as you imply. Humans have way more in common with each other than you are willing to admit. Also you know, Raskin invented quite a lot of things you've probably never complained about. Like click and drag to select text, dragging and dropping of icons. double clicking. UNDO.
      - derleth 13y ago
        > Like click and drag to select text, dragging and dropping of icons. double clicking. All idiotic ideas. > UNDO. An obvious invention. Not one requiring much thought, only the resources to implement it.
ehsanu1 13y ago
Curious, is there by any luck a study on veteran vim users in particular? It seems like the quality of execution + the familiarity of the test subjects with the UI and modes available would make a huge different in any such measurements. Vim definitely sucks when you start, especially in terms of discoverability. You have to learn by either reading the colossal manual, or (as most do) using bits and pieces from external sources. But once you learn enough and gain the muscle memory and understanding of how to use the different modes best (eg in vim's case, normal should be your default state), it becomes wonderful to use.
- TheZenPsycho 13y ago
  Depending on which measurements you are talking about, experience is largely irrelevant- as most of the "objective measurements" we are talking about, are about the quality of the UI itself, not the specific quality of the user. here are some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOMS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOMS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fittss_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fittss_law Regarding modes, I encourage you to read this 1973 study, which spawned the first modeless text editor. http://www.nomodes.com/Larry_Tesler_Consulting/1973_User_Study_Notes.html http://www.nomodes.com/Larry_Tesler_Consulting/1973_User_Stu... I wish I had ready access to the piles of studies that show modal interfaces are bad. I trust they exist. I just haven't seen them myself!

aangjie 13y ago

Am sorry, i just have to reply to this. Disclaimer: I use vim. Anti-disclaimer?: I spent two years studying cognitive science and one of my electives was HCI.(though i wasn't excited about it to be honest :P) By measurement of what? UI quality? what is it's operational/measurable definition. I suspect modes are unavoidable to deliver the kind of power vim does (over text editing )with only keystrokes. P.S: That said, i think it's a very sad thing that we can't have that joystick at the centre for the keyboard(in the home row, like in thinkpads) for all laptop keyboards.

TheZenPsycho 13y ago
It's quite a simple matter to measure /rates of error/ in modal interfaces versus non-modal interfaces. This may seem trivial for text editors in particular, but modal errors are a big cause of aeronautical accidents (and deaths), so even one error is too many in that case. And if you can avoid errors in cases where they are life threatening, why wouldn't you want to avoid errors everywhere else?
- aangjie 13y ago
  I agree low error rates are the most critical quality measure in aeronautical accidents. Am just not sure i would use that measure for text editors. If i have to operationalize my previous comment, i would say, i care about the amount of time i spend hitting the keys compared to the amount of time i spend moving around the mouse. I suppose that's not what everyone wants and in the examples the OP gives he has a point.I agree completely on the car audio part, not sure about photoshop(not much experience designing), but have some frustrating experiences with photoshop to suspect he's right.

derleth 13y ago

Raskin... wasn't he the one who said configurability is evil and shouldn't be allowed?

TheZenPsycho 13y ago
Yep. And he was correct when he said that. And he is still correct.
- derleth 13y ago
  And how did Raskin, who I have never met and who is dead now anyway, know my mind well enough to know how I work best?
  - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
    Interface design is not an entirely subjective thing as you imply. Humans have way more in common with each other than you are willing to admit. Also you know, Raskin invented quite a lot of things you've probably never complained about. Like click and drag to select text, dragging and dropping of icons. double clicking. UNDO.
    - derleth 13y ago
      > Like click and drag to select text, dragging and dropping of icons. double clicking. All idiotic ideas. > UNDO. An obvious invention. Not one requiring much thought, only the resources to implement it.

ehsanu1 13y ago

Curious, is there by any luck a study on veteran vim users in particular? It seems like the quality of execution + the familiarity of the test subjects with the UI and modes available would make a huge different in any such measurements. Vim definitely sucks when you start, especially in terms of discoverability. You have to learn by either reading the colossal manual, or (as most do) using bits and pieces from external sources. But once you learn enough and gain the muscle memory and understanding of how to use the different modes best (eg in vim's case, normal should be your default state), it becomes wonderful to use.

TheZenPsycho 13y ago
Depending on which measurements you are talking about, experience is largely irrelevant- as most of the "objective measurements" we are talking about, are about the quality of the UI itself, not the specific quality of the user. here are some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOMS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOMS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fittss_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fittss_law Regarding modes, I encourage you to read this 1973 study, which spawned the first modeless text editor. http://www.nomodes.com/Larry_Tesler_Consulting/1973_User_Study_Notes.html http://www.nomodes.com/Larry_Tesler_Consulting/1973_User_Stu... I wish I had ready access to the piles of studies that show modal interfaces are bad. I trust they exist. I just haven't seen them myself!