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The burden of proof is on you; further - I can corroborate everything about manufacturing even after woking in only a medium sized manufacturing firm. People c

The burden of proof is on you; further - I can corroborate everything about manufacturing even after woking in only a medium sized manufacturing firm. People can't be fired, and as a result few people are technically employees of a firm - they are usually employed with a labor outsourcing firm that moves people out after two years or n-1 years, where n = number of years before automatic entitlement to provident fund/pension plans. When I last heard it was something like n=3 years. There is mass absenteeism if there's a festival or someone needs help in the fields, or just if people think that they can't be fired. Did you know that your cash for payments of salaries of workers has to be within x kilometres of your factory? It's one of many rules people don't follow, because there is a forest of rules. Then there's strikes, and corruption. To provide an idea of what the attitude difference is between people on HN and the people who have so far never really had to think of professional modern commercial systems : There's a long way to go before the unspoken assumptions on the ground at a labor level closely match anything such as a forum like HN. A banker went to collect a loan instalment from a farmer. The farmers reaction was "holy hell! Haven't they come up with a debt forgiveness scheme for it already?" People still think that money can come from thin air, provided you have the connections to protect you or access to votes. Why work when you can just make sure you won't get fired and are guaranteed an increment because of the union? And the on the other side you have the firms- hemmed by 100s of laws to,protect labor, they yet find a way to do what they can/want. The government has created internship program's which can lead to a certification, and I've heard of firms warping the system to convert it into cheap labor. The article doesn't have numbers because the numbers are a search away and these are a group of known, fundamental facts. The economist isn't supposed to make every article a phd dissertation or a full fledged wiki on the off chance that someone unfamiliar with the background material is unable to perform a google search themselves.

lake99 14y ago
> The burden of proof is on you; For what claims of mine? > People can't be fired Ha! I have seen people getting fired all the time! Did you mean blue-collar workers can't be fired? > I can corroborate everything ... With anecdotal evidence? > automatic entitlement to provident fund/pension plans We are entitled to that from the very first day of employment, if the company has more than a certain number of employees. When we quit and go to another company, we are given the option of transferring it to the next employer. > There is mass absenteeism if there's a festival or someone needs help in the fields Anecdotal. I have not seen this. > ... off chance that someone unfamiliar with the background material is unable to perform a google search themselves. I mentioned specific weaknesses. Show me the relevant Google queries that you would use to get the data. It will be a learning experience for one of us.
- product50 14y ago
  You are an ignorant fool. Do some Google search and check it out. Just coming here and typing "Ha" is nothing. As an Indian myself, what the article is saying is so obvious that your comments are laughable.
- intended 14y ago
  You are entitled to a PF/pension if you are an employee of,a form. But if you are an employee of a labor firm which then sends you to Mahindra and Mahindra to work - you are not entitled to a pension from Mahindra. On top of that if you get fired after two years, you haven't worked long enough to be counted as an employee of the labor form or as a de facto employee of Mahindra. Hence no PF for you. This is the scam people are forced to use as common place because of higher and fire laws heavily favouring labor. Edit: I must add that firms also,actively try to screw labor over. I used the word forced because I was referring to a firm which did not have malicious intent. As for searching, try Wikipedia. It will get you to the labor laws in question and from there the laws of the land. Further the issue with anecdote is when they are extrapolated too far from a single incident. But I am regurgitating the experience of multiple different individuals who have worked in many different firms. This is the basis upon which the firms expansion plans are made. Also, after the murder of the manager at the maruti plant, there's is yet another distinct urge to remove labor from the equation and avoid situations where your managers can be killed. Heck - Labor management firms exist, and are used in every industry in India. You can see references to them in multiple news articles when the issue of labor is discussed. The level of disintermediation required that makes outsourcing labor viable as a business model is in itself a red flag. Further this is what HR managers and consultants take for granted - they are the ones who named firms which use interns as cheap throwaway labor, and a plethora of,other practices that horrified me but were treated as commonplace and business-as-usual. If you haven't seen as absenteeism for festivals and so on, I must ask where your factories are located.
  - lake99 14y ago
    > As for searching, try Wikipedia. It will get you to the labor laws in question and from there the laws of the land. All I see is, "Wikipedia/Google. Therefore, I am right." I know contract workers are not entitled to pensions from client firms. What relation does that have with the article I was commenting on, or my comments? Look, your anecdotal evidence does not correlate with mine at all. I will add that the labour/owner dynamics vary a lot from state to state. Tamil Nadu, Kerala, UP, Rajasthan are all vastly different from each other. Absenteeism during festivals? I have heard of that in Kerala. Not in Karnataka, not in UP. Managers getting physically attacked? I have seen that in UP, seen threats in Karnataka, Andhra, not seen in Tamil Nadu. This is exactly why sound analysis based on sound data is important.
Sven7 14y ago
India is a massive country and all the numbers you look at are huge. The problem with big numbers is they hide many many many little numbers. So what happens in the north east resembles nothing in the south west, what happens in some cities resembles nothing in other cities etc. Yet we have these meaningless pan India number, sort of like measuring the temperature of the universe and getting exited by that number. The problem with any write up generalizing personal experience up to "India scale" is the same problem we see with "big data". When there is much more information than any single person can actually digest, what ends up happening is people just spot the patterns they are already familiar with...and that is what your post represents.
- intended 14y ago
  Well the problem here is that the labor laws strongly favour labor. This is constant through out the nation due to the current stage of political evolution. Also my background completely fails at preparing me for my current task set, so I come to this with few a neutral slate. I have no urge to see patterns, if anything I'm pro labor and what I saw left me somewhat disappointed.

lake99 14y ago

> The burden of proof is on you; For what claims of mine? > People can't be fired Ha! I have seen people getting fired all the time! Did you mean blue-collar workers can't be fired? > I can corroborate everything ... With anecdotal evidence? > automatic entitlement to provident fund/pension plans We are entitled to that from the very first day of employment, if the company has more than a certain number of employees. When we quit and go to another company, we are given the option of transferring it to the next employer. > There is mass absenteeism if there's a festival or someone needs help in the fields Anecdotal. I have not seen this. > ... off chance that someone unfamiliar with the background material is unable to perform a google search themselves. I mentioned specific weaknesses. Show me the relevant Google queries that you would use to get the data. It will be a learning experience for one of us.

product50 14y ago
You are an ignorant fool. Do some Google search and check it out. Just coming here and typing "Ha" is nothing. As an Indian myself, what the article is saying is so obvious that your comments are laughable.
intended 14y ago
You are entitled to a PF/pension if you are an employee of,a form. But if you are an employee of a labor firm which then sends you to Mahindra and Mahindra to work - you are not entitled to a pension from Mahindra. On top of that if you get fired after two years, you haven't worked long enough to be counted as an employee of the labor form or as a de facto employee of Mahindra. Hence no PF for you. This is the scam people are forced to use as common place because of higher and fire laws heavily favouring labor. Edit: I must add that firms also,actively try to screw labor over. I used the word forced because I was referring to a firm which did not have malicious intent. As for searching, try Wikipedia. It will get you to the labor laws in question and from there the laws of the land. Further the issue with anecdote is when they are extrapolated too far from a single incident. But I am regurgitating the experience of multiple different individuals who have worked in many different firms. This is the basis upon which the firms expansion plans are made. Also, after the murder of the manager at the maruti plant, there's is yet another distinct urge to remove labor from the equation and avoid situations where your managers can be killed. Heck - Labor management firms exist, and are used in every industry in India. You can see references to them in multiple news articles when the issue of labor is discussed. The level of disintermediation required that makes outsourcing labor viable as a business model is in itself a red flag. Further this is what HR managers and consultants take for granted - they are the ones who named firms which use interns as cheap throwaway labor, and a plethora of,other practices that horrified me but were treated as commonplace and business-as-usual. If you haven't seen as absenteeism for festivals and so on, I must ask where your factories are located.
- lake99 14y ago
  > As for searching, try Wikipedia. It will get you to the labor laws in question and from there the laws of the land. All I see is, "Wikipedia/Google. Therefore, I am right." I know contract workers are not entitled to pensions from client firms. What relation does that have with the article I was commenting on, or my comments? Look, your anecdotal evidence does not correlate with mine at all. I will add that the labour/owner dynamics vary a lot from state to state. Tamil Nadu, Kerala, UP, Rajasthan are all vastly different from each other. Absenteeism during festivals? I have heard of that in Kerala. Not in Karnataka, not in UP. Managers getting physically attacked? I have seen that in UP, seen threats in Karnataka, Andhra, not seen in Tamil Nadu. This is exactly why sound analysis based on sound data is important.

Sven7 14y ago

India is a massive country and all the numbers you look at are huge. The problem with big numbers is they hide many many many little numbers. So what happens in the north east resembles nothing in the south west, what happens in some cities resembles nothing in other cities etc. Yet we have these meaningless pan India number, sort of like measuring the temperature of the universe and getting exited by that number. The problem with any write up generalizing personal experience up to "India scale" is the same problem we see with "big data". When there is much more information than any single person can actually digest, what ends up happening is people just spot the patterns they are already familiar with...and that is what your post represents.

intended 14y ago
Well the problem here is that the labor laws strongly favour labor. This is constant through out the nation due to the current stage of political evolution. Also my background completely fails at preparing me for my current task set, so I come to this with few a neutral slate. I have no urge to see patterns, if anything I'm pro labor and what I saw left me somewhat disappointed.