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Words, words, and more empty words! > But the likes of Bharat Forge and Mahindra & Mahindra prefer to employ sophisticated machinery rather than abundant labou

by lake99 13y ago

Words, words, and more empty words! > But the likes of Bharat Forge and Mahindra & Mahindra prefer to employ sophisticated machinery rather than abundant labour. Surely, it employs labour. Why does the author claim that machines are preferred over labour? What does he compare it with? Where are the numbers? > At the other end of the spectrum are innumerable tinpot workshops, employing handfuls of people and outdated methods. Sure, there are such workshops. Everywhere. > What India lacks is a Mittelstand of midsized, labour-hungry firms. Anything to back up this claim? How does India compare to other countries on this front? Where is the data? Where is the analysis? > These include India’s notorious labour laws which, on paper, prevent factories firing anyone without the state’s permission. Is this really true? What Act/Article Number should I be looking at? My impression of the article is that it is a tale / Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, / Signifying nothing.

lifeguard 13y ago
Nice tear down of a planted story. Regular people were not the intended audience of this hit piece.
- intended 13y ago
  ? I work at a firm that manufacture goods and has a few factories. Everything mentioned in the article is true, and grossly downplays the gritty reality to make for simple reading.
  - lifeguard 13y ago
    I have the impression life is gritty in all sectors of the Indian economy, so why the hit piece on manufacturing right before elections in India?
    - f1vespeed 13y ago
      define "hit piece"
  - nikster 13y ago
    I have never been to India but I live in Thailand. India sounds like a hot steaming mess, but then many of these countries are. Thailand is extremely corrupt and ruled by a few oligarch families; democracy is bought outright. But what they have done is recognized the opportunity for foreign investment; the laws to start a business in Thailand are basically impossible for a foreigner - except! - they made new laws under a Board of Investment that can get around all that and make it super easy. If you have cash, you can build a factory here under very favorable terms. Perhaps the difference is that in Thailand the entrenched powers have a vital interest in attracting foreign investment where in India they dont? Aside from laws the cultural norms may also be a problem. Laws are really not enforced here but the culture is such that hygiene is excellent pretty much everywhere. Not an issue.
    - lifeguard 13y ago
      Does Thailand even have an official government today? I also respectfully submit that it is very different from India. But I may be wrong on that. It is fascinating to me how a functional legal system is like 'software' for a good market economy. I hear in the C.I.S. one can show up to one's business and find the locks have been changed and new tough young men are around to explain you no longer own it.
Jun8 13y ago
Well do you have any figures to back your clam that this is an idiotic piece? Comparison of India and China is a common topic on the Economist (and elsewhere). These are countries with comparable population, demographics, history of exploitation by the West, and they are both in Asia. Sure, theere are large difference in the details but I think the question that, given its tremendous presence in the tech field, very much comparable to China, why has India not excelled as much as its neighbor? This article is trying to argue the thesis that the "Chinese economic revolution" was mostly due to them exploiting their manpower to great effect (even when Mao was in power this was their strategy, it was just done in a misguided and primitive way) while India has been less successful in achieving this.
- lake99 13y ago
  > Well do you have any figures to back your clam that this is an idiotic piece? The article was arguing for "How India is throwing away the world’s biggest economic opportunity". I don't need data to show the arguments were weak. I just need to analyse the arguments presented. > These are countries with comparable population, agreed > demographics huh? > history of exploitation by the West I don't see that coming up in the article > and they are both in Asia. How is that relevant? > Comparison of India and China is a common topic on the Economist (and elsewhere). My problem is not with the comparison of China and India. My problem is with this comparison of China and India.
rm445 13y ago
As usual when someone posts an Economist leader article, someone is indignant that it is a little thin. The actual briefing article, at a couple of thousand words longer, is still journalism rather than a scholarly paper, i.e. it doesn't cite every fact, but it does state the numbers behind its assertions.
- lake99 13y ago
  I don't know what actual article you are referring to, other than the one at the link posted. > but it does state the numbers behind its assertions. I mentioned the lack of some specific numbers for some specific assertions. Can you direct me to where they have covered that? > ... is still journalism ... If I were interested in labels, I'd call it yellow journalism.
  - netrus 13y ago
    > I don't know what actual article you are referring to, other than the one at the link posted. I do: http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21577373-india-will-soon-have-fifth-worlds-working-age-population-it-urgently-needs-provide http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21577373-india-will-s...
rohansingh 13y ago
This is a leader from The Economist . These are often short introduction and position statements on issues that are discussed in more depth elsewhere in the issue. I wonder if this one came from this winter's issue that included a special report on India.
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  You're correct that it's a leader, but it's not from this winter. Look at the date on the article: May 11th, 2013. It's from the latest issue. Here is the full briefing: http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21577373-india-will-soon-have-fifth-worlds-working-age-population-it-urgently-needs-provide http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21577373-india-will-s...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
intended 13y ago
The burden of proof is on you; further - I can corroborate everything about manufacturing even after woking in only a medium sized manufacturing firm. People can't be fired, and as a result few people are technically employees of a firm - they are usually employed with a labor outsourcing firm that moves people out after two years or n-1 years, where n = number of years before automatic entitlement to provident fund/pension plans. When I last heard it was something like n=3 years. There is mass absenteeism if there's a festival or someone needs help in the fields, or just if people think that they can't be fired. Did you know that your cash for payments of salaries of workers has to be within x kilometres of your factory? It's one of many rules people don't follow, because there is a forest of rules. Then there's strikes, and corruption. To provide an idea of what the attitude difference is between people on HN and the people who have so far never really had to think of professional modern commercial systems : There's a long way to go before the unspoken assumptions on the ground at a labor level closely match anything such as a forum like HN. A banker went to collect a loan instalment from a farmer. The farmers reaction was "holy hell! Haven't they come up with a debt forgiveness scheme for it already?" People still think that money can come from thin air, provided you have the connections to protect you or access to votes. Why work when you can just make sure you won't get fired and are guaranteed an increment because of the union? And the on the other side you have the firms- hemmed by 100s of laws to,protect labor, they yet find a way to do what they can/want. The government has created internship program's which can lead to a certification, and I've heard of firms warping the system to convert it into cheap labor. The article doesn't have numbers because the numbers are a search away and these are a group of known, fundamental facts. The economist isn't supposed to make every article a phd dissertation or a full fledged wiki on the off chance that someone unfamiliar with the background material is unable to perform a google search themselves.
- lake99 13y ago
  > The burden of proof is on you; For what claims of mine? > People can't be fired Ha! I have seen people getting fired all the time! Did you mean blue-collar workers can't be fired? > I can corroborate everything ... With anecdotal evidence? > automatic entitlement to provident fund/pension plans We are entitled to that from the very first day of employment, if the company has more than a certain number of employees. When we quit and go to another company, we are given the option of transferring it to the next employer. > There is mass absenteeism if there's a festival or someone needs help in the fields Anecdotal. I have not seen this. > ... off chance that someone unfamiliar with the background material is unable to perform a google search themselves. I mentioned specific weaknesses. Show me the relevant Google queries that you would use to get the data. It will be a learning experience for one of us.

by lake99 13y ago

lifeguard 13y ago

Nice tear down of a planted story. Regular people were not the intended audience of this hit piece.

intended 13y ago
? I work at a firm that manufacture goods and has a few factories. Everything mentioned in the article is true, and grossly downplays the gritty reality to make for simple reading.
- lifeguard 13y ago
  I have the impression life is gritty in all sectors of the Indian economy, so why the hit piece on manufacturing right before elections in India?
  - f1vespeed 13y ago
    define "hit piece"
- nikster 13y ago
  I have never been to India but I live in Thailand. India sounds like a hot steaming mess, but then many of these countries are. Thailand is extremely corrupt and ruled by a few oligarch families; democracy is bought outright. But what they have done is recognized the opportunity for foreign investment; the laws to start a business in Thailand are basically impossible for a foreigner - except! - they made new laws under a Board of Investment that can get around all that and make it super easy. If you have cash, you can build a factory here under very favorable terms. Perhaps the difference is that in Thailand the entrenched powers have a vital interest in attracting foreign investment where in India they dont? Aside from laws the cultural norms may also be a problem. Laws are really not enforced here but the culture is such that hygiene is excellent pretty much everywhere. Not an issue.
  - lifeguard 13y ago
    Does Thailand even have an official government today? I also respectfully submit that it is very different from India. But I may be wrong on that. It is fascinating to me how a functional legal system is like 'software' for a good market economy. I hear in the C.I.S. one can show up to one's business and find the locks have been changed and new tough young men are around to explain you no longer own it.

Jun8 13y ago

Well do you have any figures to back your clam that this is an idiotic piece? Comparison of India and China is a common topic on the Economist (and elsewhere). These are countries with comparable population, demographics, history of exploitation by the West, and they are both in Asia. Sure, theere are large difference in the details but I think the question that, given its tremendous presence in the tech field, very much comparable to China, why has India not excelled as much as its neighbor? This article is trying to argue the thesis that the "Chinese economic revolution" was mostly due to them exploiting their manpower to great effect (even when Mao was in power this was their strategy, it was just done in a misguided and primitive way) while India has been less successful in achieving this.

lake99 13y ago
> Well do you have any figures to back your clam that this is an idiotic piece? The article was arguing for "How India is throwing away the world’s biggest economic opportunity". I don't need data to show the arguments were weak. I just need to analyse the arguments presented. > These are countries with comparable population, agreed > demographics huh? > history of exploitation by the West I don't see that coming up in the article > and they are both in Asia. How is that relevant? > Comparison of India and China is a common topic on the Economist (and elsewhere). My problem is not with the comparison of China and India. My problem is with this comparison of China and India.

rm445 13y ago

As usual when someone posts an Economist leader article, someone is indignant that it is a little thin. The actual briefing article, at a couple of thousand words longer, is still journalism rather than a scholarly paper, i.e. it doesn't cite every fact, but it does state the numbers behind its assertions.

lake99 13y ago
I don't know what actual article you are referring to, other than the one at the link posted. > but it does state the numbers behind its assertions. I mentioned the lack of some specific numbers for some specific assertions. Can you direct me to where they have covered that? > ... is still journalism ... If I were interested in labels, I'd call it yellow journalism.
- netrus 13y ago
  > I don't know what actual article you are referring to, other than the one at the link posted. I do: http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21577373-india-will-soon-have-fifth-worlds-working-age-population-it-urgently-needs-provide http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21577373-india-will-s...

rohansingh 13y ago

This is a leader from The Economist . These are often short introduction and position statements on issues that are discussed in more depth elsewhere in the issue. I wonder if this one came from this winter's issue that included a special report on India.

w1ntermute 13y ago
You're correct that it's a leader, but it's not from this winter. Look at the date on the article: May 11th, 2013. It's from the latest issue. Here is the full briefing: http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21577373-india-will-soon-have-fifth-worlds-working-age-population-it-urgently-needs-provide http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21577373-india-will-s...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

intended 13y ago

The burden of proof is on you; further - I can corroborate everything about manufacturing even after woking in only a medium sized manufacturing firm. People can't be fired, and as a result few people are technically employees of a firm - they are usually employed with a labor outsourcing firm that moves people out after two years or n-1 years, where n = number of years before automatic entitlement to provident fund/pension plans. When I last heard it was something like n=3 years. There is mass absenteeism if there's a festival or someone needs help in the fields, or just if people think that they can't be fired. Did you know that your cash for payments of salaries of workers has to be within x kilometres of your factory? It's one of many rules people don't follow, because there is a forest of rules. Then there's strikes, and corruption. To provide an idea of what the attitude difference is between people on HN and the people who have so far never really had to think of professional modern commercial systems : There's a long way to go before the unspoken assumptions on the ground at a labor level closely match anything such as a forum like HN. A banker went to collect a loan instalment from a farmer. The farmers reaction was "holy hell! Haven't they come up with a debt forgiveness scheme for it already?" People still think that money can come from thin air, provided you have the connections to protect you or access to votes. Why work when you can just make sure you won't get fired and are guaranteed an increment because of the union? And the on the other side you have the firms- hemmed by 100s of laws to,protect labor, they yet find a way to do what they can/want. The government has created internship program's which can lead to a certification, and I've heard of firms warping the system to convert it into cheap labor. The article doesn't have numbers because the numbers are a search away and these are a group of known, fundamental facts. The economist isn't supposed to make every article a phd dissertation or a full fledged wiki on the off chance that someone unfamiliar with the background material is unable to perform a google search themselves.

lake99 13y ago
> The burden of proof is on you; For what claims of mine? > People can't be fired Ha! I have seen people getting fired all the time! Did you mean blue-collar workers can't be fired? > I can corroborate everything ... With anecdotal evidence? > automatic entitlement to provident fund/pension plans We are entitled to that from the very first day of employment, if the company has more than a certain number of employees. When we quit and go to another company, we are given the option of transferring it to the next employer. > There is mass absenteeism if there's a festival or someone needs help in the fields Anecdotal. I have not seen this. > ... off chance that someone unfamiliar with the background material is unable to perform a google search themselves. I mentioned specific weaknesses. Show me the relevant Google queries that you would use to get the data. It will be a learning experience for one of us.