6 ms·

This is a highly contested subject in linguistics and very much not definitive like the article makes it out to be. There are many languages where mama does mea

by dsrguru 13y ago

This is a highly contested subject in linguistics and very much not definitive like the article makes it out to be. There are many languages where mama does mean mother, but there are many languages where it does not. In some cases, you get the opposite. In proto-Old Japanese, for example, papa meant mother. In Georgian, mama means father and deda means mother. I don't know enough about the mama/papa topic to comment further, but a quick Google suggests that this paper is somewhat well regarded by at least some people: https://www.sussex.ac.uk/webteam/gateway/file.php?name=where-do-mama2.pdf&site=1 https://www.sussex.ac.uk/webteam/gateway/file.php?name=where...

FraaJad 13y ago
Yup. In the South Indian language Tulu, "ma" root word (ie., Amme) is used to refer to the father and the "pa" for mother (ie.,Appe). Also, mama = Uncle in many Indian languages (both Dravidian and Indo-European).
iuguy 13y ago
In Turkish, mother is "anne" (pronounced ah-neh) and father is "baba". I don't know whether or not Turkish babies make the mama sounds or not, not having experienced them doing so.
- melvinmt 13y ago
  Well, "mama" in Turkish is a nickname for breast milk. So if a foreign man in Istanbul is calling his mother "mama" all the time, expect some giggles.
- darkhorn 13y ago
  In rural areas and during the pre-republican period mother is "ana", in Turkish.
- oakaz 13y ago
  "Mamu" means "Mother" for Balkanian Turks.
shared4you 13y ago
Finnish = äiti Hungarian = anya Kannada = ತಾಯಿ (taayi) ... "avva" sometimes colloquial. Telugu = తల్లి (talli)
- pygy_ 13y ago
  äiti, anya (pronounced ~aaya) and avva are still compatible with the explanation. The Telugu word is the formal name (corresponding to mother on Wikipedia). Are you familiar with the language? We'd need statistics on the frequency of the first consonant utterance, and see if it correllates with the distribution of the names given to mothers by babies.
  - shared4you 13y ago
    Yes, Telugu is my mother-tongue and Kannada is my first-language. In spoken Telugu today, 'amma' is far more common than 'talli'. In written Telugu, both are equally common. 'talli' has secondary meaning of just refering to any female. For example, "chitti talli" (little girl), "talli-tandrulu" (mother-father, i.e., parents), etc. Similar remarks apply to Kannada. Avva is informal and more common in rural dialects.
    - dheerosaur 13y ago
      Talli is to mother as Amma is to the mama word from the article. Interestingly, 'mama' in Telugu is uncle.
    - akandiah 13y ago
      > In spoken Telugu today, 'amma' is far more common than 'talli'. That's intriguing, because 'amma' is the Tamil word for mother.
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pygy_ 13y ago
Mama isn't always the first "word". Some babies start with dada or papa, sometimes to the dismay of their mother who don't understand the development of language and feel rejected... It is not surprising that some culture developed it the other way around.
- anonymous 13y ago
  I watched my brother grow up and his first word was "give me". Well, to be pedantic it was "dai", which means "give me". Given that it's a simple single syllable, it's somewhat in line with the article... Edit: before you ask, yes he did know exactly what it meant. He'd point at things and say "dai", fully expecting you to bring it to him.
  - mdpye 13y ago
    before you ask, yes he did know exactly what it meant. He'd point at things and say "dai", fully expecting you to bring it to him. I think you may well be reading too much in to it. Reaching for things and uttering out of frustration if they're out of reach comes long before any useful linguistic understanding. Do you remember how old he was? As someone with several younger siblings and newborn foster siblings, I'd guess that it was a cute coincidence (as many "first words" are).
    - anonymous 13y ago
      2 or 3. It's an interesting philosophic argument though - if he knew that pointing at things and saying that word led to others almost always giving him what he asked for, does that mean he knew the meaning of the word, or is he just aware of its effect? Is saying "mama" and expecting mom to come any different, given that it's not an actual full imperative sentence?
      - pkolaczk 13y ago
        First word at age 2 or 3 years old? Can't be. With a 3-year-old you can talk using short sentences, and typically they know about 100-200 words, sometimes more. The first word like "mama" "baba" "tata" usually comes out at age <12 months.
aquarin 13y ago
Bulgarian: mama, tati
- LeonidasXIV 13y ago
  Polish: mama, tata (of course not in formal contexts).
jckt 13y ago
Way better read than the OP. You seem to be pretty well-versed in the field. What readings would you recommend to someone interested in historical linguistics?
aidos 13y ago
And in Maori Papa is the Earth Mother.
ra 13y ago
Pertinet excerpt from linked paper: "8. Conclusion. As the evidence shows clearly, the mama/papa words are created by parents who are eager to believe that their children are trying to talk when in fact those children are merely producing the universal babbling noises. Since every child babbles in much the same way, parents everywhere hear the same noises, and they almost always choose to assign the same meanings to the childish noises they hear. Again and again parents create words like mama ‘mother’, and again and again these creations pass out of the nursery into adult speech, displacing other words in the process. As a result, we find the mama/papa words in languages all over the planet, in much the same form everywhere, and we frequently find them in the process of displacing older and more formal words, which themselves may be the greatly changed remains of earlier mama/papa words."
why-el 13y ago
I don't see where you disagree with the article. From what I understood, the article is suggesting that the reason we all have mama, papa or similar words in our languages is their relatively easy prononciation coupled with the baby's needs. Where is it saying that mama definitely means mother?
lolcraft 13y ago
Eeeh, either you cited the wrong article, or I'm very confused. That paper, and what's written in your comment, actually supports what the original article says. It's the same thesis, actually. The paper that you link to is even written by R. Jacobson, the author of the book that's cited in the article; it supports the article's position and addresses your specific objections. So it's a highly contested theory, but you cite a paper supporting it? What that paper does argue is against "in the beginning, there was one language" theories, which is not the same thing at all. Granted, the original submission goes a bit overboard. It's not "nearly every language", it's about 55% of all languages for "mama" as mother, and 55% for "papa"/"baba" as father, there's a lot of mixing m/p/b (the labial consonants) and so on. But both you, and the paper you link to, are supporting that position, essentially.
beatgammit 13y ago
Tagalog: formal: nanay (mom), tatay (dad) or just nay or tay for short informal: Ina (Mother), Ama (Father) It's interesting that even the formal words are simple enough for a baby to pronounce. FWIW, "mama" means something entirely different (formal, uncommon term for gentleman).

by dsrguru 13y ago

FraaJad 13y ago

Yup. In the South Indian language Tulu, "ma" root word (ie., Amme) is used to refer to the father and the "pa" for mother (ie.,Appe). Also, mama = Uncle in many Indian languages (both Dravidian and Indo-European).

iuguy 13y ago

In Turkish, mother is "anne" (pronounced ah-neh) and father is "baba". I don't know whether or not Turkish babies make the mama sounds or not, not having experienced them doing so.

melvinmt 13y ago
Well, "mama" in Turkish is a nickname for breast milk. So if a foreign man in Istanbul is calling his mother "mama" all the time, expect some giggles.
darkhorn 13y ago
In rural areas and during the pre-republican period mother is "ana", in Turkish.
oakaz 13y ago
"Mamu" means "Mother" for Balkanian Turks.

shared4you 13y ago

Finnish = äiti Hungarian = anya Kannada = ತಾಯಿ (taayi) ... "avva" sometimes colloquial. Telugu = తల్లి (talli)

pygy_ 13y ago
äiti, anya (pronounced ~aaya) and avva are still compatible with the explanation. The Telugu word is the formal name (corresponding to mother on Wikipedia). Are you familiar with the language? We'd need statistics on the frequency of the first consonant utterance, and see if it correllates with the distribution of the names given to mothers by babies.
- shared4you 13y ago
  Yes, Telugu is my mother-tongue and Kannada is my first-language. In spoken Telugu today, 'amma' is far more common than 'talli'. In written Telugu, both are equally common. 'talli' has secondary meaning of just refering to any female. For example, "chitti talli" (little girl), "talli-tandrulu" (mother-father, i.e., parents), etc. Similar remarks apply to Kannada. Avva is informal and more common in rural dialects.
  - dheerosaur 13y ago
    Talli is to mother as Amma is to the mama word from the article. Interestingly, 'mama' in Telugu is uncle.
  - akandiah 13y ago
    > In spoken Telugu today, 'amma' is far more common than 'talli'. That's intriguing, because 'amma' is the Tamil word for mother.
- deleted 13y ago
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- deleted 13y ago
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- deleted 13y ago

pygy_ 13y ago

Mama isn't always the first "word". Some babies start with dada or papa, sometimes to the dismay of their mother who don't understand the development of language and feel rejected... It is not surprising that some culture developed it the other way around.

anonymous 13y ago
I watched my brother grow up and his first word was "give me". Well, to be pedantic it was "dai", which means "give me". Given that it's a simple single syllable, it's somewhat in line with the article... Edit: before you ask, yes he did know exactly what it meant. He'd point at things and say "dai", fully expecting you to bring it to him.
- mdpye 13y ago
  before you ask, yes he did know exactly what it meant. He'd point at things and say "dai", fully expecting you to bring it to him. I think you may well be reading too much in to it. Reaching for things and uttering out of frustration if they're out of reach comes long before any useful linguistic understanding. Do you remember how old he was? As someone with several younger siblings and newborn foster siblings, I'd guess that it was a cute coincidence (as many "first words" are).
  - anonymous 13y ago
    2 or 3. It's an interesting philosophic argument though - if he knew that pointing at things and saying that word led to others almost always giving him what he asked for, does that mean he knew the meaning of the word, or is he just aware of its effect? Is saying "mama" and expecting mom to come any different, given that it's not an actual full imperative sentence?
    - pkolaczk 13y ago
      First word at age 2 or 3 years old? Can't be. With a 3-year-old you can talk using short sentences, and typically they know about 100-200 words, sometimes more. The first word like "mama" "baba" "tata" usually comes out at age <12 months.

aquarin 13y ago

Bulgarian: mama, tati

LeonidasXIV 13y ago
Polish: mama, tata (of course not in formal contexts).

jckt 13y ago

Way better read than the OP. You seem to be pretty well-versed in the field. What readings would you recommend to someone interested in historical linguistics?

aidos 13y ago

And in Maori Papa is the Earth Mother.

ra 13y ago

Pertinet excerpt from linked paper: "8. Conclusion. As the evidence shows clearly, the mama/papa words are created by parents who are eager to believe that their children are trying to talk when in fact those children are merely producing the universal babbling noises. Since every child babbles in much the same way, parents everywhere hear the same noises, and they almost always choose to assign the same meanings to the childish noises they hear. Again and again parents create words like mama ‘mother’, and again and again these creations pass out of the nursery into adult speech, displacing other words in the process. As a result, we find the mama/papa words in languages all over the planet, in much the same form everywhere, and we frequently find them in the process of displacing older and more formal words, which themselves may be the greatly changed remains of earlier mama/papa words."

why-el 13y ago

I don't see where you disagree with the article. From what I understood, the article is suggesting that the reason we all have mama, papa or similar words in our languages is their relatively easy prononciation coupled with the baby's needs. Where is it saying that mama definitely means mother?

lolcraft 13y ago

Eeeh, either you cited the wrong article, or I'm very confused. That paper, and what's written in your comment, actually supports what the original article says. It's the same thesis, actually. The paper that you link to is even written by R. Jacobson, the author of the book that's cited in the article; it supports the article's position and addresses your specific objections. So it's a highly contested theory, but you cite a paper supporting it? What that paper does argue is against "in the beginning, there was one language" theories, which is not the same thing at all. Granted, the original submission goes a bit overboard. It's not "nearly every language", it's about 55% of all languages for "mama" as mother, and 55% for "papa"/"baba" as father, there's a lot of mixing m/p/b (the labial consonants) and so on. But both you, and the paper you link to, are supporting that position, essentially.

beatgammit 13y ago

Tagalog: formal: nanay (mom), tatay (dad) or just nay or tay for short informal: Ina (Mother), Ama (Father) It's interesting that even the formal words are simple enough for a baby to pronounce. FWIW, "mama" means something entirely different (formal, uncommon term for gentleman).