9 ms·

How about we drop the prudishness, and discuss the points raised by the article? Seriously, what's with all the language moralising? This guys is totally free t

How about we drop the prudishness, and discuss the points raised by the article? Seriously, what's with all the language moralising? This guys is totally free to make his points colourfully and passionately however he wants to. If it upsets you so much (it really shouldn't) then don't read it. His word choices are not hate speech or discriminatory so the fact that they may offend your sensibilities has precisely zero relevance to anything.

edent 13y ago
(I'm the creator of the site) I've noticed - and I may be wrong - that all the folk in the UK are unfazed by the swearing and have reacted quite positively either in person or on Twitter. The Americans, by contrast, seem a lot more upset about the swearing. I wonder why that is? Either way, I do wonder if some sections of the tech community are to... corporate in their approach to language. Look at the fuss when Linus went on a rant about Nvidia. That's how people speak in real life when they are angry or passionate. We shouldn't lose that simply because of a perceived lack of professionalism. The swearing, in my tumblr's case, is designed to be repetitious to the point of banality. It is, if you like, an exercise in over-reaction.
- misnome 13y ago
  > The swearing, in my tumblr's case, is designed to be repetitious to the point of banality. It is, if you like, an exercise in over-reaction. This is exactly how I interpreted it's meaning. So, another UK data point...
  - ams6110 13y ago
    An American data point: I don't normally like to see profanity used, particularly in what is supposed to be persuasive writing, but in this case I agree with you... it was clearly and deliberately over the top and for some reason it works here.
- rickdale 13y ago
  Well as an American sick of the #doorslams, I say, Fuck Yeah Man, hopefully this makes a difference. Usually I don't even like a mobile site and have to spend a minute scrolling all the way to the bottom of the page (after clicking I am not interested in downloading the app) and click take me to regular site. Then I have to wait for the regular site to load. All around, companies are just skeeting their brand everywhere and dont know how to keep up. Everyone just seems to ride every band wagon possible in hope that one of them pays off rather than setting a path for themselves and creating an identity by sticking to that path. I mean seriously do companies need a flickr, facebook, twitter, instagram a mobile site, a mobile app, a regular site etc.? How about going for one, succeeding there and the building from there. Seems like these companies have no vision for the future in tech and are just throwing money on every bet thinking one will hit.
- corin_ 13y ago
  There was a discussion about cultural differences regarding swearing here last month - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5594356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5594356 And yeah, we Brits really couldn't give much less of a fuck :)
- TeamMCS 13y ago
  I agree and this is a world where we humans can entirely misinterpret a text message because someone forgot to put an 'Emoticon' at the end. As a cauliflower faced, bucktoothed, tea swilling brit I didn't have any issue with it at all. My concern is the potential ramifications of a 'colourful' post. Given the job market and the general sensitivity in the work place it can cause real and genuine problems. When I recruit I look for talented and colourful people (geeks of old?) but when the shoe is on the other foot I do try and be much more conservative then I otherwise would be. It's a sad fact and one that has proven true more than once [Ninja Edit] Pseudonyms are useful if you need a good rant. Take Inspector Gadget - even if he was outed by some spineless journo
- obviouslygreen 13y ago
  While I have no idea about other places (unfortunately), as an American, I find my countrymen (oh crap, should that be countrypersons?!) are indeed eye-rollingly oversensitive about profanity and political correctness in general. It ends up being a good measure of a social situation. As soon as I decide I'm around people that might be interesting, I will slowly decrease the child-friendliness of my language. The subtle reactions to the first use of "fuck" tells you a lot about how open-minded people are likely to be. I can understand being careful in your use of language in corporate environments, simply because -- at least here -- offending the wrong people with colorful expression can easily compromise your employment or promotion opportunities. Granted, I'd say that's not a great environment to work in, but some people don't have quite the flexibility in what they can do or where they can do it in terms of taking or leaving job opportunities.
  - laureny 13y ago
    > as an American, I find my countrymen (oh crap, should that be countrypersons?!) are indeed eye-rollingly oversensitive about profanity and political correctness in general. I know it sounds trite, but it's mostly about the children. I couldn't care less about people dropping F bombs around me (although it does taint my opinion of them if it's done for no particular reason), but the less kids hear the word, the more they realize that it is not to be used lightly. It's been fairly effective in the US, from what I can tell.
    - dmd 13y ago
      > it's mostly about the children > it is not to be used lightly See: "begging the question".
      - chris_j 13y ago
        I don't understand what you mean. Would you mind expanding on that?
        dmd 13y ago
- snprbob86 13y ago
  There is a difference between corporate and mature. Your article sounds like a kid who just discovered swearing. It lowers the information density of your post and distracts from your message. Furthermore, it reduces your credibility and hurts your persuasive writing goal. Lastly, it makes you sound like a fucking idiot.
  - dubcanada 13y ago
    What do you know, you're American.
    - aeikenberry 13y ago
      As an American who isn't offended in the slightest by swearing, all of this Brit condescension is much more offensive. We get it. You like to think you're so much more sophisticated. Even a slack-jawed blog proves this.
      - dasil003 13y ago
        You have to admit that in general Brits are much better than Americans at swearing though. The problem in this case is simply the stylistic choice to rely primarily on "fucking" instead of the usual variety of flowery vituperation.
      - corin_ 13y ago
        I'm not sure any of us Brits think our ability to swear is "sophisticated".
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - to3m 13y ago
        It is possible the posting could have been made with humorous intent.
    - snprbob86 13y ago
- michaelfeathers 13y ago
  The Americans, by contrast, seem a lot more upset about the swearing. I wonder why that is? There's a prudish streak in the US that I really believe comes from the fact that the country was originally settled by people too religious and too concerned with overtly moral social interaction to be tolerated in 17th century England. That may seem like too easy an explanation but I really do think there is some truth to it. Despite the excesses in American culture, that sort of casual swearing still gets backlash when it goes beyond people who are familiar with each other.
  - syllogism 13y ago
    At any rate, the English speaking country founded by convicts certainly swears quite a lot.
    - jahewson 13y ago
      Indeed. I recently encountered the phrase "pardon my Australian" from one such inhabitant.
  - jrajav 13y ago
    As an agnostic American, this is pretty much exactly it. There are lots of subtle social stigmas - like cursing - due to the widespread Christian influence.
    - icebraining 13y ago
      Due to a specific strand of Christianity. In the Southern European countries, for example, we have the opposite: plenty of Christianity inspired swearing. I've mentioned it here before, but Your Mother's Tongue: Book of European Invective is a great and extremely funny book on the subject.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - dasil003 13y ago
    I believe puritanical is the word you're looking for.
- dubcanada 13y ago
  It's a American thing sadly. The difference in culture. Where I'm from every second word is pretty much a swear word.
  - barking 13y ago
    I swear too much, it's something I'm not proud of. Not least for the example I've set. I really admire people who can respond to difficult situations in a dignified manner. I never heard my mother curse and now I wince every time my children use one. I even hypocritically scold them for doing so. I get that from my father who ironically never uses bad language around his grandchildren.
- rza 13y ago
  In the same line as when people over-use the phrase "get shit done"; it just seems like a bunch of try-hard developers trying to appear super edgy. We get it, you're not a "corporate drone" and you can curse, but you're a developer, not a rockstar. Phone-apps aren't that serious.
  - qu4z-2 13y ago
    Wait, rock stars are known for being serious now?
- chuhnk 13y ago
  I cannot speculate on the behaviour of Americans but as a Brit I can agree on your point that I am rather unfazed by swearing. In fact I worked in an environment in which my boss and MD both swore during general conversation and even more passionately during some interesting discussions. I was drawn to those people and that form of communication because it felt we were really free to say anything we wanted and that meant a lot less bullshit, we'd speak our minds and get straight to the point leading to more honest viewpoints coming across. This has probably been posted before but Stephen Fry's opinion on swearing is pretty valid in my opinion. ---- Swearing is a really important part of one's life. It would be impossible to imagine going through life without swearing and without enjoying swearing... There used to be mad, silly, prissy people who used to say swearing was a sign of a poor vocabulary -such utter nonsense. The people I know who swear the most tend to have the widest vocabularies and the kind of person who says swearing is a sign of a poor vocabulary usually have a pretty poor vocabulary themselves... The sort of twee person who thinks swearing is in any way a sign of a lack of education or a lack of verbal interest or -is just a fucking lunatic... I haven't met anybody who's truly shocked at swearing, really, they're only shocked on behalf of other people. Well, you know, that's preposterous... or they say 'it's not necessary'. As if that should stop one doing it! It's not necessary to have coloured socks, it's not necessary for this cushion to be here, but is anyone going to write in and say 'I was shocked to see that cushion there, it really wasn't necessary'? No, things not being necessary is what makes life interesting -the little extras in life. Stephen Fry on the joys of swearing. Stephen Fry: Guilty, BBC4, September 8th 2007 ----
  - sbirchall 13y ago
    In my research during a (somewhat fruitless) comment transaction here on HN about pirates (actual salt sea-dog type pirates) I came across the following story which I think some of the people commenting here might find interesting... I'm in the process of writing this up as a sea shantie: A pirate captain by the name of Bartholemew Roberts captured a British official by the name of Plunkett who had double crossed a company of pirates and shot them down under a banner of truce - few things could enrage a pirate more! Old Roberts was incensed and, upon finally capturing Plunkett, took to cursing him in the most foul and heinous of language - of which a pirate dialect was primarily composed. Seeing himself a dead man and with no other hope left to him, Plunkett stuck out his chest and being a proud and experienced Irishman, gave back a measure and then some more in such illbegotten slights of character on Old Roberts name that the crew hung limp and incapacitated with laughter. The whole exchange inspired such a regard for Plunkett's tongue that dispite his crimes against pirates, the whole company agreed to send him on his way no harm done.
- jusben1369 13y ago
  There's also a "laziness" factor whereby dropping F bombs left and right starts to feel like a cop out vs thinking of some cleverer ways to articulate feigned outrage.
  - mtts 13y ago
    It's this reason, more than any other, that's brought me to clean up my language as I've gotten older. Calling someone a motherf* is easy. Being able to point out their promiscuity would make an 18th century French libertine blush, now that takes, if not skill, at least the effort of reading some 18th century French libertine literature.
- MrJagil 13y ago
  In Denmark we have a drum n bass band called f.u.k.t. I was told that when touring in England, there was no chance in hell that even the most hardcore toaster would pronounce it "fucked". My impression has always been that England is a very well-mannered country, even in the ghettos (of course they swear, but it just seems that a sense of etiquette permeates the country)
- jerrya 13y ago
  Right. The problem is that you used the American spelling of the f-word. My guess is that if you had spelled it with an English accent, everyone would have thought it charming, quaint, positively British, and blooody brilliant.
- ralfn 13y ago
  >The Americans, by contrast, seem a lot more upset about the swearing. I wonder why that is? Some cultures apply morals in their actual life choices, where other cultures apply them in their pretend politeness. Some of them seem to believe that being nice equates acting nice. But acting is deceit and manipulating, hence by definition not actually nice behavior. But they do mean well, its just that they focus more on the symbolism of "good" behavior, than the reality of it. And thats generally the pattern: cultures that focus strongly on symbolism will also strongly apply morality symbolically. For example: americans worship their flag, but hate their government.
- dutchbrit 13y ago
  I went to your blog but it doesn't have an app :(
- vijayr 13y ago
  I didn't like the swearing, but for different reasons - it was just annoying/tiring to read "fucking" (or some variation) every fourth or fifth word. This is similar to some people finishing every sentence with "you know". Just a nitpick, that's all. I agree with the content though.
- lotharbot 13y ago
  > " Americans, by contrast, seem a lot more upset about the swearing." Consider the term "f-bomb". The reason the term exists is because it's evocative: a bomb produces a "sudden and violent release of energy", typically intended to destroy a target or to draw attention, often producing a sentiment of "shock and awe". The word "fuck" can intensify a destructive sentiment, or draw attention and produce shock. It carries some amount of emotional payload (possibly more in the US, but some wherever it's spoken); you would not be using the word otherwise. The effect changes when you lob f-grenades indiscriminately. The underlying sentiment you're trying to draw attention to can get lost in the chaos -- being "repetitious to the point of banality" makes the mobile app criticism into an indistinct mass of lexical white noise (see the alt text on http://xkcd.com/1210/ http://xkcd.com/1210/ ). I found your tumblr obnoxious, not so much due to lacking professionalism or corporate-ness, but because the commentary is flat, tiresome, and flavorless. You've gone way beyond spicing it up with f-pepper, and all the way to burying it under f-spam. With some nuance and cleverness, you could turn it into hilarious overreaction rather than banal overreaction. See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3212694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3212694
  - qu4z-2 13y ago
    I've always thought of the term "f-bomb" as being the domain of mothers and housewives who are uncomfortable saying fuck. Am I wrong? Is it more common in America? Also to me it always seemed less descriptive and more an attempt to link the concept of bombs (which we can probably all agree are bad) with the word. Maybe it's a cultural thing.
    - lotharbot 13y ago
      The HN discussion linked from my previous post includes a fairly extended set of comments on this exact issue. My read is that "f-bomb" (and other -bomb terms) can be merely a case of being uncomfortable with swearing, but it is also used by people of various demographics to describe the conversational effects. I hope my use of terms like "f-grenade", "f-pepper" (which came from the previous article), and "f-spam" are likewise evocative.
- DanBC 13y ago
  > that all the folk in the UK are unfazed by the swearing and have reacted quite positively either in person or on Twitter. I'm English. I'm unfazed by it. But it's not a good example of lots of swearing. It's just lots of "fucks" and "fucking" scattered through the text. There doesn't appear to be much rhythm or flow to it. It's not funny. It's not effective at conveying anger. It's just poor writing. That's fine, not everyone is a great writer, but don't try to defend shitty writing with some kind of "Anyone English gets it and it's only you uptight Yanks who don't like it". You're no Malcom fucking Tucker.
sghill 13y ago
> This guys is totally free to make his points colourfully and passionately however he wants to. I agree. He's created a very good and useful showcase of a specific frustration that many of us would prefer to never implement or deal with. For an exercise in venting, this style makes a lot of sense. > His word choices are not hate speech or discriminatory so the fact that they may offend your sensibilities has precisely zero relevance to anything. The language chosen to express his feelings means that I can't reference this site to anyone I work with in the enterprise world. For giving people materials in fighting against implementing these things, it collects a lot of great examples of why this is frustrating. Unfortunately, sharing it with the people who make these kinds of decisions has "career-limiting move" written all over it. Maybe it will be (is?) licensed in a way that allows for business-friendly adaptation.
- antoko 13y ago
  That's interesting, I'd have no problem linking this to my boss or PM if they were trying to convince us to implement something that resembled a doorslam. I'd probably include some reference to the fact that the language is colorful in the email and suggest this is the kind of passion that the proposed doorslam will raise in our own customers. I'm a brit living in the US so add that as a datapoint too! It doesn't even register on my offensive scale... did we have this same hand-wringing over zed shaw's programming motherfucker website? I don't recall it if we did. http://programming-motherfucker.com/become.html http://programming-motherfucker.com/become.html
  - corin_ 13y ago
    Not really no - quite a few people questioning the validity of it, or it's place on HN, but only one person against the swearing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2355427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2355427 On the contrary, most people really motherfucking joined in.
  - qu4z-2 13y ago
    I do seem to remember a fair bit of hand-wringing over "heroku fucking console" though.
jabits 13y ago
It's simply low-class and adds nothing. Extra words from an author that cannot make a point without pointless, useless, extraneous, immaterial, unrelated, redundant extra words.
- begurken 13y ago
  Ooh, low class... like those filthy manual workers, right? Or sailors... they swear all the time. Not to forget those filthy colonials from the antipodes and their gutter mouth. That you used the term 'low class' indicates that your opinion is nothing but a meaningless and self righteous value judgement (because you're not low-class, right?). Let's get it straight... it's not 1850 anymore. Swearing is not a marker of anything, and well chosen swearing does add something. It indicates frustration, and the point of the repeated swearing here is to convey repeated 'oh my fucking god, I can't believe this stupid shit is happening over and over again, I feel like I'm taking fucking crazy pills here'. It works. Without it, you would need separate clauses denoting that you're frustrated, otherwise the whole thing would sound too mild, like someone objecting to a minor and mostly irrelevant point. Swearing also jolts groupthinking fools out of their comfort zone. Chances are if you're in an organization where nobody swears, then you're in an organization where it's taboo to say lots of things, and that is unquestionably bad.
- regis 13y ago
  Wow, I think this is much more offensive than someone saying 'fuck' Just because you choose not to do something does not mean that people who do that thing are lower than you.
- MrMan 13y ago
  showing too much class obsession is a red flag, probably. like saying the word "classy."
  - qu4z-2 13y ago
    I'm pretty sure you're allowed to say "classy" if you're talking about fake moustaches and top-hats, a la reddit. That's firmly tongue-in-cheek though. Also, replying to GP, I'm pretty sure swearing is less "low-class" and more "not middle-class".
Ilmesnkie_Jones 13y ago
The swearing is capable of being both non-funny or interesting and not offensive and or detrimental to the point of the article at the same time. Of course the point of the article is probably more interesting so I agree with you on that point.
a_p 13y ago
I posted this comment about obscenities on another thread recently, but I think it is relevant to this thread as well. According to Paul Fussell's Class: A Guide Through the American Status System, aversion to profanity is a middle class thing. The upper class[1] do not use euphemisms for profanity or obscenity. Fussell wrote that Jilly Cooper reported "I once overheard my son regaling his friends: 'Mummy says pardon is a much worse word than fuck.'" I doubt that many members of the upper class (see Fussell's book for a definition of upper class, it is roughly the tastes of "old money" but not dependent upon actual wealth) read Hacker News. It is likely that those who do not object to obscenities such as the word "fuck" are more socially liberal freethinkers who dislike formality. Those who do object are likely to be members of the middle class who believe (foolishly) that in censoring profanities and vulgarities, they are emulating the upper class. The phenomenon of "professionalism" is also a product of the middle class — to the upper class, selling things for a living is distasteful and déclassé. "Professional" language is usually very timid and full of circumlocutions as the primary goal is to not say anything that anyone may find offensive. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253 http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/d...
- MrMan 13y ago
  i loved all of this except the [1] thingy - it smacks of the trying-too-hard pretention that causes all the bland US javascript salesmen to worship "professionalism" and conformity. maybe you could edit it out and just put a link instead?
- qu4z-2 13y ago
  Hah. Cheers for this. I was going to comment about this book, but then I realised that I didn't remember what it was called, or when I'd read it, or any actual details, and didn't actually have enough content for a comment. It's a good book, and I'd recommend it if you have an interest in this area.
onemorepassword 13y ago
I don't mind Americans being oversensitive to swearing. I can respect cultural differences, and IRL I will usually make an effort not to swear in front of Americans. What pisses me off however is the judgmental bullshit excuses Americans use for their intolerance, like swearing being "unprofessional" or "childish". Utter nonsense. Please stop pretending your oversensitivity to "bad words", which in my experience is unique on the planet, has some kind of logical reason, and stop lecturing people about it. Especially on HN, a place one assumes is mostly visited by well-educated worldly people, such lecturing seems completely misplaced. If you have an issue with swearing, keep it to yourself. Even grammar nazis are more constructive and useful.
bambax 13y ago
The swearing is relevant and good. Calls to download a fucking app when you're in the middle of doing something else, and when the app itself is entirely unnecessary and doesn't provide any more value, are incredibly annoying and lead to strong language. If you were in a hurry and tried to heat up something in a microwave, and the device insisted you must absolutely set up the time first, you'd swear and probably kick the thing. So why not here? The app strategists deserve this and much more.
doorhammer 13y ago
My perception of any kind of language is a matter of pragmatism and presentation. I don't ascribe any particular ethical or moral value to the words themselves, or how I Say them. To me, it comes down to what your goal is, what the context is, and how it impacts other people. As far as goals go, I'll use whatever language I think will get the point across that I'm trying to make. Sometimes it's nice that there are words that I can reserve as "I'm really crossing a social line here to demonstrate irritation." That said, I generally avoid making people uncomfortable or offending them for no reason. For instance, I don't think there's anything inherently unethical about cussing around someone that thinks cussing is immoral, but I'll generally avoid it if there's not really some strategic use to the language. It saves them a little discomfort (however unjustified someone might think the discomfort is) and it can save me a little big of grief if they're really adamant about it. I follow the same road with how grammatically correct I try to be, or how politically correct I try to be. It's ethically N/A to me, so it's more useful strategically. I do the same thing with clothing/fashion, pictures I post on social media, etc. There's no use for me to self-righteously defending myself if I do something I don't really care about when know will be poorly received. Could just be a lazy path-of-least-resistance thing, though. I will say, that if it's within my design and goal (and this website seems squarely within the authors intent), I'm not going to lose any sleep over someone finding my website and being offended by my language. I might do my best to be considerate in public, or where it makes sense for me, but if we're hanging out somewhere semi-private or you're on my website and act pissy about the presentation or language, well, no one made you read it, and I'll just as happily ignore you. Oh yeah. Also. I hate app requests. Make a slick mobile website and leave me alone pls tx.

edent 13y ago

(I'm the creator of the site) I've noticed - and I may be wrong - that all the folk in the UK are unfazed by the swearing and have reacted quite positively either in person or on Twitter. The Americans, by contrast, seem a lot more upset about the swearing. I wonder why that is? Either way, I do wonder if some sections of the tech community are to... corporate in their approach to language. Look at the fuss when Linus went on a rant about Nvidia. That's how people speak in real life when they are angry or passionate. We shouldn't lose that simply because of a perceived lack of professionalism. The swearing, in my tumblr's case, is designed to be repetitious to the point of banality. It is, if you like, an exercise in over-reaction.

misnome 13y ago
> The swearing, in my tumblr's case, is designed to be repetitious to the point of banality. It is, if you like, an exercise in over-reaction. This is exactly how I interpreted it's meaning. So, another UK data point...
- ams6110 13y ago
  An American data point: I don't normally like to see profanity used, particularly in what is supposed to be persuasive writing, but in this case I agree with you... it was clearly and deliberately over the top and for some reason it works here.
rickdale 13y ago
Well as an American sick of the #doorslams, I say, Fuck Yeah Man, hopefully this makes a difference. Usually I don't even like a mobile site and have to spend a minute scrolling all the way to the bottom of the page (after clicking I am not interested in downloading the app) and click take me to regular site. Then I have to wait for the regular site to load. All around, companies are just skeeting their brand everywhere and dont know how to keep up. Everyone just seems to ride every band wagon possible in hope that one of them pays off rather than setting a path for themselves and creating an identity by sticking to that path. I mean seriously do companies need a flickr, facebook, twitter, instagram a mobile site, a mobile app, a regular site etc.? How about going for one, succeeding there and the building from there. Seems like these companies have no vision for the future in tech and are just throwing money on every bet thinking one will hit.
corin_ 13y ago
There was a discussion about cultural differences regarding swearing here last month - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5594356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5594356 And yeah, we Brits really couldn't give much less of a fuck :)
TeamMCS 13y ago
I agree and this is a world where we humans can entirely misinterpret a text message because someone forgot to put an 'Emoticon' at the end. As a cauliflower faced, bucktoothed, tea swilling brit I didn't have any issue with it at all. My concern is the potential ramifications of a 'colourful' post. Given the job market and the general sensitivity in the work place it can cause real and genuine problems. When I recruit I look for talented and colourful people (geeks of old?) but when the shoe is on the other foot I do try and be much more conservative then I otherwise would be. It's a sad fact and one that has proven true more than once [Ninja Edit] Pseudonyms are useful if you need a good rant. Take Inspector Gadget - even if he was outed by some spineless journo
obviouslygreen 13y ago
While I have no idea about other places (unfortunately), as an American, I find my countrymen (oh crap, should that be countrypersons?!) are indeed eye-rollingly oversensitive about profanity and political correctness in general. It ends up being a good measure of a social situation. As soon as I decide I'm around people that might be interesting, I will slowly decrease the child-friendliness of my language. The subtle reactions to the first use of "fuck" tells you a lot about how open-minded people are likely to be. I can understand being careful in your use of language in corporate environments, simply because -- at least here -- offending the wrong people with colorful expression can easily compromise your employment or promotion opportunities. Granted, I'd say that's not a great environment to work in, but some people don't have quite the flexibility in what they can do or where they can do it in terms of taking or leaving job opportunities.
- laureny 13y ago
  > as an American, I find my countrymen (oh crap, should that be countrypersons?!) are indeed eye-rollingly oversensitive about profanity and political correctness in general. I know it sounds trite, but it's mostly about the children. I couldn't care less about people dropping F bombs around me (although it does taint my opinion of them if it's done for no particular reason), but the less kids hear the word, the more they realize that it is not to be used lightly. It's been fairly effective in the US, from what I can tell.
  - dmd 13y ago
    > it's mostly about the children > it is not to be used lightly See: "begging the question".
    - chris_j 13y ago
      I don't understand what you mean. Would you mind expanding on that?
      - dmd 13y ago
snprbob86 13y ago
There is a difference between corporate and mature. Your article sounds like a kid who just discovered swearing. It lowers the information density of your post and distracts from your message. Furthermore, it reduces your credibility and hurts your persuasive writing goal. Lastly, it makes you sound like a fucking idiot.
- dubcanada 13y ago
  What do you know, you're American.
  - aeikenberry 13y ago
    As an American who isn't offended in the slightest by swearing, all of this Brit condescension is much more offensive. We get it. You like to think you're so much more sophisticated. Even a slack-jawed blog proves this.
    - dasil003 13y ago
      You have to admit that in general Brits are much better than Americans at swearing though. The problem in this case is simply the stylistic choice to rely primarily on "fucking" instead of the usual variety of flowery vituperation.
    - corin_ 13y ago
      I'm not sure any of us Brits think our ability to swear is "sophisticated".
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
    - to3m 13y ago
      It is possible the posting could have been made with humorous intent.
  - snprbob86 13y ago
michaelfeathers 13y ago
The Americans, by contrast, seem a lot more upset about the swearing. I wonder why that is? There's a prudish streak in the US that I really believe comes from the fact that the country was originally settled by people too religious and too concerned with overtly moral social interaction to be tolerated in 17th century England. That may seem like too easy an explanation but I really do think there is some truth to it. Despite the excesses in American culture, that sort of casual swearing still gets backlash when it goes beyond people who are familiar with each other.
- syllogism 13y ago
  At any rate, the English speaking country founded by convicts certainly swears quite a lot.
  - jahewson 13y ago
    Indeed. I recently encountered the phrase "pardon my Australian" from one such inhabitant.
- jrajav 13y ago
  As an agnostic American, this is pretty much exactly it. There are lots of subtle social stigmas - like cursing - due to the widespread Christian influence.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    Due to a specific strand of Christianity. In the Southern European countries, for example, we have the opposite: plenty of Christianity inspired swearing. I've mentioned it here before, but Your Mother's Tongue: Book of European Invective is a great and extremely funny book on the subject.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- dasil003 13y ago
  I believe puritanical is the word you're looking for.
dubcanada 13y ago
It's a American thing sadly. The difference in culture. Where I'm from every second word is pretty much a swear word.
- barking 13y ago
  I swear too much, it's something I'm not proud of. Not least for the example I've set. I really admire people who can respond to difficult situations in a dignified manner. I never heard my mother curse and now I wince every time my children use one. I even hypocritically scold them for doing so. I get that from my father who ironically never uses bad language around his grandchildren.
rza 13y ago
In the same line as when people over-use the phrase "get shit done"; it just seems like a bunch of try-hard developers trying to appear super edgy. We get it, you're not a "corporate drone" and you can curse, but you're a developer, not a rockstar. Phone-apps aren't that serious.
- qu4z-2 13y ago
  Wait, rock stars are known for being serious now?
chuhnk 13y ago
I cannot speculate on the behaviour of Americans but as a Brit I can agree on your point that I am rather unfazed by swearing. In fact I worked in an environment in which my boss and MD both swore during general conversation and even more passionately during some interesting discussions. I was drawn to those people and that form of communication because it felt we were really free to say anything we wanted and that meant a lot less bullshit, we'd speak our minds and get straight to the point leading to more honest viewpoints coming across. This has probably been posted before but Stephen Fry's opinion on swearing is pretty valid in my opinion. ---- Swearing is a really important part of one's life. It would be impossible to imagine going through life without swearing and without enjoying swearing... There used to be mad, silly, prissy people who used to say swearing was a sign of a poor vocabulary -such utter nonsense. The people I know who swear the most tend to have the widest vocabularies and the kind of person who says swearing is a sign of a poor vocabulary usually have a pretty poor vocabulary themselves... The sort of twee person who thinks swearing is in any way a sign of a lack of education or a lack of verbal interest or -is just a fucking lunatic... I haven't met anybody who's truly shocked at swearing, really, they're only shocked on behalf of other people. Well, you know, that's preposterous... or they say 'it's not necessary'. As if that should stop one doing it! It's not necessary to have coloured socks, it's not necessary for this cushion to be here, but is anyone going to write in and say 'I was shocked to see that cushion there, it really wasn't necessary'? No, things not being necessary is what makes life interesting -the little extras in life. Stephen Fry on the joys of swearing. Stephen Fry: Guilty, BBC4, September 8th 2007 ----
- sbirchall 13y ago
  In my research during a (somewhat fruitless) comment transaction here on HN about pirates (actual salt sea-dog type pirates) I came across the following story which I think some of the people commenting here might find interesting... I'm in the process of writing this up as a sea shantie: A pirate captain by the name of Bartholemew Roberts captured a British official by the name of Plunkett who had double crossed a company of pirates and shot them down under a banner of truce - few things could enrage a pirate more! Old Roberts was incensed and, upon finally capturing Plunkett, took to cursing him in the most foul and heinous of language - of which a pirate dialect was primarily composed. Seeing himself a dead man and with no other hope left to him, Plunkett stuck out his chest and being a proud and experienced Irishman, gave back a measure and then some more in such illbegotten slights of character on Old Roberts name that the crew hung limp and incapacitated with laughter. The whole exchange inspired such a regard for Plunkett's tongue that dispite his crimes against pirates, the whole company agreed to send him on his way no harm done.
jusben1369 13y ago
There's also a "laziness" factor whereby dropping F bombs left and right starts to feel like a cop out vs thinking of some cleverer ways to articulate feigned outrage.
- mtts 13y ago
  It's this reason, more than any other, that's brought me to clean up my language as I've gotten older. Calling someone a motherf* is easy. Being able to point out their promiscuity would make an 18th century French libertine blush, now that takes, if not skill, at least the effort of reading some 18th century French libertine literature.
MrJagil 13y ago
In Denmark we have a drum n bass band called f.u.k.t. I was told that when touring in England, there was no chance in hell that even the most hardcore toaster would pronounce it "fucked". My impression has always been that England is a very well-mannered country, even in the ghettos (of course they swear, but it just seems that a sense of etiquette permeates the country)
jerrya 13y ago
Right. The problem is that you used the American spelling of the f-word. My guess is that if you had spelled it with an English accent, everyone would have thought it charming, quaint, positively British, and blooody brilliant.
ralfn 13y ago
>The Americans, by contrast, seem a lot more upset about the swearing. I wonder why that is? Some cultures apply morals in their actual life choices, where other cultures apply them in their pretend politeness. Some of them seem to believe that being nice equates acting nice. But acting is deceit and manipulating, hence by definition not actually nice behavior. But they do mean well, its just that they focus more on the symbolism of "good" behavior, than the reality of it. And thats generally the pattern: cultures that focus strongly on symbolism will also strongly apply morality symbolically. For example: americans worship their flag, but hate their government.
dutchbrit 13y ago
I went to your blog but it doesn't have an app :(
vijayr 13y ago
I didn't like the swearing, but for different reasons - it was just annoying/tiring to read "fucking" (or some variation) every fourth or fifth word. This is similar to some people finishing every sentence with "you know". Just a nitpick, that's all. I agree with the content though.
lotharbot 13y ago
> " Americans, by contrast, seem a lot more upset about the swearing." Consider the term "f-bomb". The reason the term exists is because it's evocative: a bomb produces a "sudden and violent release of energy", typically intended to destroy a target or to draw attention, often producing a sentiment of "shock and awe". The word "fuck" can intensify a destructive sentiment, or draw attention and produce shock. It carries some amount of emotional payload (possibly more in the US, but some wherever it's spoken); you would not be using the word otherwise. The effect changes when you lob f-grenades indiscriminately. The underlying sentiment you're trying to draw attention to can get lost in the chaos -- being "repetitious to the point of banality" makes the mobile app criticism into an indistinct mass of lexical white noise (see the alt text on http://xkcd.com/1210/ http://xkcd.com/1210/ ). I found your tumblr obnoxious, not so much due to lacking professionalism or corporate-ness, but because the commentary is flat, tiresome, and flavorless. You've gone way beyond spicing it up with f-pepper, and all the way to burying it under f-spam. With some nuance and cleverness, you could turn it into hilarious overreaction rather than banal overreaction. See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3212694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3212694
- qu4z-2 13y ago
  I've always thought of the term "f-bomb" as being the domain of mothers and housewives who are uncomfortable saying fuck. Am I wrong? Is it more common in America? Also to me it always seemed less descriptive and more an attempt to link the concept of bombs (which we can probably all agree are bad) with the word. Maybe it's a cultural thing.
  - lotharbot 13y ago
    The HN discussion linked from my previous post includes a fairly extended set of comments on this exact issue. My read is that "f-bomb" (and other -bomb terms) can be merely a case of being uncomfortable with swearing, but it is also used by people of various demographics to describe the conversational effects. I hope my use of terms like "f-grenade", "f-pepper" (which came from the previous article), and "f-spam" are likewise evocative.
DanBC 13y ago
> that all the folk in the UK are unfazed by the swearing and have reacted quite positively either in person or on Twitter. I'm English. I'm unfazed by it. But it's not a good example of lots of swearing. It's just lots of "fucks" and "fucking" scattered through the text. There doesn't appear to be much rhythm or flow to it. It's not funny. It's not effective at conveying anger. It's just poor writing. That's fine, not everyone is a great writer, but don't try to defend shitty writing with some kind of "Anyone English gets it and it's only you uptight Yanks who don't like it". You're no Malcom fucking Tucker.

sghill 13y ago

> This guys is totally free to make his points colourfully and passionately however he wants to. I agree. He's created a very good and useful showcase of a specific frustration that many of us would prefer to never implement or deal with. For an exercise in venting, this style makes a lot of sense. > His word choices are not hate speech or discriminatory so the fact that they may offend your sensibilities has precisely zero relevance to anything. The language chosen to express his feelings means that I can't reference this site to anyone I work with in the enterprise world. For giving people materials in fighting against implementing these things, it collects a lot of great examples of why this is frustrating. Unfortunately, sharing it with the people who make these kinds of decisions has "career-limiting move" written all over it. Maybe it will be (is?) licensed in a way that allows for business-friendly adaptation.

antoko 13y ago
That's interesting, I'd have no problem linking this to my boss or PM if they were trying to convince us to implement something that resembled a doorslam. I'd probably include some reference to the fact that the language is colorful in the email and suggest this is the kind of passion that the proposed doorslam will raise in our own customers. I'm a brit living in the US so add that as a datapoint too! It doesn't even register on my offensive scale... did we have this same hand-wringing over zed shaw's programming motherfucker website? I don't recall it if we did. http://programming-motherfucker.com/become.html http://programming-motherfucker.com/become.html
- corin_ 13y ago
  Not really no - quite a few people questioning the validity of it, or it's place on HN, but only one person against the swearing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2355427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2355427 On the contrary, most people really motherfucking joined in.
- qu4z-2 13y ago
  I do seem to remember a fair bit of hand-wringing over "heroku fucking console" though.

jabits 13y ago

It's simply low-class and adds nothing. Extra words from an author that cannot make a point without pointless, useless, extraneous, immaterial, unrelated, redundant extra words.

begurken 13y ago
Ooh, low class... like those filthy manual workers, right? Or sailors... they swear all the time. Not to forget those filthy colonials from the antipodes and their gutter mouth. That you used the term 'low class' indicates that your opinion is nothing but a meaningless and self righteous value judgement (because you're not low-class, right?). Let's get it straight... it's not 1850 anymore. Swearing is not a marker of anything, and well chosen swearing does add something. It indicates frustration, and the point of the repeated swearing here is to convey repeated 'oh my fucking god, I can't believe this stupid shit is happening over and over again, I feel like I'm taking fucking crazy pills here'. It works. Without it, you would need separate clauses denoting that you're frustrated, otherwise the whole thing would sound too mild, like someone objecting to a minor and mostly irrelevant point. Swearing also jolts groupthinking fools out of their comfort zone. Chances are if you're in an organization where nobody swears, then you're in an organization where it's taboo to say lots of things, and that is unquestionably bad.
regis 13y ago
Wow, I think this is much more offensive than someone saying 'fuck' Just because you choose not to do something does not mean that people who do that thing are lower than you.
MrMan 13y ago
showing too much class obsession is a red flag, probably. like saying the word "classy."
- qu4z-2 13y ago
  I'm pretty sure you're allowed to say "classy" if you're talking about fake moustaches and top-hats, a la reddit. That's firmly tongue-in-cheek though. Also, replying to GP, I'm pretty sure swearing is less "low-class" and more "not middle-class".

Ilmesnkie_Jones 13y ago

The swearing is capable of being both non-funny or interesting and not offensive and or detrimental to the point of the article at the same time. Of course the point of the article is probably more interesting so I agree with you on that point.

a_p 13y ago

I posted this comment about obscenities on another thread recently, but I think it is relevant to this thread as well. According to Paul Fussell's Class: A Guide Through the American Status System, aversion to profanity is a middle class thing. The upper class[1] do not use euphemisms for profanity or obscenity. Fussell wrote that Jilly Cooper reported "I once overheard my son regaling his friends: 'Mummy says pardon is a much worse word than fuck.'" I doubt that many members of the upper class (see Fussell's book for a definition of upper class, it is roughly the tastes of "old money" but not dependent upon actual wealth) read Hacker News. It is likely that those who do not object to obscenities such as the word "fuck" are more socially liberal freethinkers who dislike formality. Those who do object are likely to be members of the middle class who believe (foolishly) that in censoring profanities and vulgarities, they are emulating the upper class. The phenomenon of "professionalism" is also a product of the middle class — to the upper class, selling things for a living is distasteful and déclassé. "Professional" language is usually very timid and full of circumlocutions as the primary goal is to not say anything that anyone may find offensive. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253 http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/d...

MrMan 13y ago
i loved all of this except the [1] thingy - it smacks of the trying-too-hard pretention that causes all the bland US javascript salesmen to worship "professionalism" and conformity. maybe you could edit it out and just put a link instead?
qu4z-2 13y ago
Hah. Cheers for this. I was going to comment about this book, but then I realised that I didn't remember what it was called, or when I'd read it, or any actual details, and didn't actually have enough content for a comment. It's a good book, and I'd recommend it if you have an interest in this area.

onemorepassword 13y ago

I don't mind Americans being oversensitive to swearing. I can respect cultural differences, and IRL I will usually make an effort not to swear in front of Americans. What pisses me off however is the judgmental bullshit excuses Americans use for their intolerance, like swearing being "unprofessional" or "childish". Utter nonsense. Please stop pretending your oversensitivity to "bad words", which in my experience is unique on the planet, has some kind of logical reason, and stop lecturing people about it. Especially on HN, a place one assumes is mostly visited by well-educated worldly people, such lecturing seems completely misplaced. If you have an issue with swearing, keep it to yourself. Even grammar nazis are more constructive and useful.

bambax 13y ago

The swearing is relevant and good. Calls to download a fucking app when you're in the middle of doing something else, and when the app itself is entirely unnecessary and doesn't provide any more value, are incredibly annoying and lead to strong language. If you were in a hurry and tried to heat up something in a microwave, and the device insisted you must absolutely set up the time first, you'd swear and probably kick the thing. So why not here? The app strategists deserve this and much more.

doorhammer 13y ago

My perception of any kind of language is a matter of pragmatism and presentation. I don't ascribe any particular ethical or moral value to the words themselves, or how I Say them. To me, it comes down to what your goal is, what the context is, and how it impacts other people. As far as goals go, I'll use whatever language I think will get the point across that I'm trying to make. Sometimes it's nice that there are words that I can reserve as "I'm really crossing a social line here to demonstrate irritation." That said, I generally avoid making people uncomfortable or offending them for no reason. For instance, I don't think there's anything inherently unethical about cussing around someone that thinks cussing is immoral, but I'll generally avoid it if there's not really some strategic use to the language. It saves them a little discomfort (however unjustified someone might think the discomfort is) and it can save me a little big of grief if they're really adamant about it. I follow the same road with how grammatically correct I try to be, or how politically correct I try to be. It's ethically N/A to me, so it's more useful strategically. I do the same thing with clothing/fashion, pictures I post on social media, etc. There's no use for me to self-righteously defending myself if I do something I don't really care about when know will be poorly received. Could just be a lazy path-of-least-resistance thing, though. I will say, that if it's within my design and goal (and this website seems squarely within the authors intent), I'm not going to lose any sleep over someone finding my website and being offended by my language. I might do my best to be considerate in public, or where it makes sense for me, but if we're hanging out somewhere semi-private or you're on my website and act pissy about the presentation or language, well, no one made you read it, and I'll just as happily ignore you. Oh yeah. Also. I hate app requests. Make a slick mobile website and leave me alone pls tx.