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The back button didn't keep my text. My original comment was only about hjkl vs motions: I didn't bring arrows in the discussion, the parent did. Also my claim

The back button didn't keep my text. My original comment was only about hjkl vs motions: I didn't bring arrows in the discussion, the parent did. Also my claim was: > hjkl are almost worthless compared to other means of navigation and I stand by it. I didn't write "hjkl are useless" or advocate the use of arrows vs hjkl, IIRC. hjkl are better than the arrows for short range movements but those short range movements (1-3 cols, 1-3 lines) make up such a small part of the movements we actually do all day long that focusing on hjkl is just absurd. All the hjkl advocacy can be reduced to "Do whatever you'd do with arrows but with hjkl because it helps you save all those right hand movements… and home row." But char-by-car and line-by-line movement is just as slow and bad with hjkl as it is with arrows. Saving a few slight translations of the right hand is so worthless compared to the thousands of hjkl or arrows you save with bBwWeEfFtT/?{}() and friends… unless we try to save our wrists but why make productivity claims, then?

rickhanlonii 13y ago
I apologize, I did confuse you with the other commentator. Everyone agrees that using w to move a word at a time is better than llllllll. No one is arguing with you about that. So in that sense, we all agree that for certain movements, hjkl really is worthless compared to alternatives. But if you want to move a few characters, there's no better option than hljk. Second best are the arrow keys. But there's really no reason to move your hand out of position just to move one character when your finger is already on the key which will do it. So, I don't think it's at all accurate to say in general that hjkl is worthless compared to other means of navigation. They have their place, and they're quite valuable there since all other means of navigation are almost worthless compared to hjkl when moving a few characters.
- johncoltrane 13y ago
  Yes, moving by a few characters is indeed best done with hjkl if you touch type. But the vast majority of movements we do doesn't belong to that category. In a day, I'll do a hundred or a thousand more long range movements and I argue that these long range movements are those that deserve optimization the most. Going back a few words is better done with bbb and (probably) a couple of l than 20 or so h and IMO insisting on new users to disable the arrow keys to learn hjkl is way beside the mark and horribly myopic. Using hjkl instead of the arrows is better but the gain is ridiculous compared to what you get with motions: if you replace a thousand of arrows with a thousand of hjkl you get a small benefit; if you replace a thousand of hjkl or arrows with a hundred of bw and co. you get a huge benefit. Learning hjkl gets so much emphasis for so little usefulness… So yeah, hjkl are almost worthless compared to other means of navigation. For a huge percentage of the actual movements we do all day long.

rickhanlonii 13y ago

I apologize, I did confuse you with the other commentator. Everyone agrees that using w to move a word at a time is better than llllllll. No one is arguing with you about that. So in that sense, we all agree that for certain movements, hjkl really is worthless compared to alternatives. But if you want to move a few characters, there's no better option than hljk. Second best are the arrow keys. But there's really no reason to move your hand out of position just to move one character when your finger is already on the key which will do it. So, I don't think it's at all accurate to say in general that hjkl is worthless compared to other means of navigation. They have their place, and they're quite valuable there since all other means of navigation are almost worthless compared to hjkl when moving a few characters.

johncoltrane 13y ago
Yes, moving by a few characters is indeed best done with hjkl if you touch type. But the vast majority of movements we do doesn't belong to that category. In a day, I'll do a hundred or a thousand more long range movements and I argue that these long range movements are those that deserve optimization the most. Going back a few words is better done with bbb and (probably) a couple of l than 20 or so h and IMO insisting on new users to disable the arrow keys to learn hjkl is way beside the mark and horribly myopic. Using hjkl instead of the arrows is better but the gain is ridiculous compared to what you get with motions: if you replace a thousand of arrows with a thousand of hjkl you get a small benefit; if you replace a thousand of hjkl or arrows with a hundred of bw and co. you get a huge benefit. Learning hjkl gets so much emphasis for so little usefulness… So yeah, hjkl are almost worthless compared to other means of navigation. For a huge percentage of the actual movements we do all day long.