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We've (very recently... in my lifetime) created a society in the US where it can be almost impossible to distance yourself from early mistakes. Or in the case

We've (very recently... in my lifetime) created a society in the US where it can be almost impossible to distance yourself from early mistakes. Or in the case of the guy here, something that isn't even a mistake you made really but a failing of our horrendous health care situation. While there are sometimes systems in place to deal with this (eg. the 7 year window after which most things fall off credit reports), there's a nasty feedback loop that can't really be accounted for with statutes of limitations. "Ok, you don't have a $40,000 charged off medical bill due anymore, but why weren't you working for the past 7 years?" It isn't just with credit either, I commented on something semi-related about a month ago here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5433720 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5433720. While there are positive aspects to this permanence in some cases, there's a lot of negative too.

eldavido 14y ago
I think we're experiencing the worst of this now. As more data gets aggregated, it becomes easier to find something bad about everyone. Maybe, in our mutually tarnished futures, the collective conscience of employers will see the absurdity of holding something against someone from 10+ years ago.
michaelochurch 14y ago
The main moral debate going on with regard to employment is what it's OK to have happen to someone who's unlucky, and how much regulation we're willing to put in place to protect those who are unlucky. Most people who have bad credit were unlucky. They had unexpected losses of income or medical problems that their insurers wouldn't cover. However, most people would agree that it's OK for someone to be denied a house loan or credit card because of bad luck in the past. Loans aren't rights. They aren't necessities for living. If you can't get a mortgage, rent. It sucks to have your housing choices thus limited, but it's not exactly a life-wrecking catastrophe. Jobs are different. Society has agreed, repeatedly, that bad luck shouldn't make a person unemployable; that everyone has the right to seek appropriate work. We make black-listing illegal and non-compete agreements non-enforceable (if they preclude employment outright as opposed to actual bad-faith competition) for that reason. The problem is that there are a lot of companies that don't want to play by these rules. They really want to be like the comic-strip boss who throws two-thirds of the resumes in the trash and says, "I don't want to work with unlucky people". What I think people should do, personally, if they meet onerous follow-on request is to fake time pressure (or use real time pressure if it exists). "I have a Friday deadline on an offer, and won't be able to turn it down unless I have an offer letter from you." If the offer letter says, "contingent on <X>" where X is something onerous (like a credit check for a non-finance job) then you may want to ask what you get if you don't get the offer, negotiate until it's acceptable (again with the time pressure) and get that in writing.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  That can work if you have leveridge , for example having a high demand skillset where they do things like "offers in writing". If you are a kid trying to get minimum wage job with bad credit they'll probably just move on.
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    Yeah, you're almost certainly right. It only works if they need people, and then they probably aren't wasting time with long search processes.
- eldavido 14y ago
  Michael, do you have any evidence for your assertion that "most people who have bad credit were unlucky"?
  - walshemj 14y ago
    In the USA any nontrivial medical condition will do it - glad I am in the UK now I am on the kidney transplant waiting list :-)

eldavido 14y ago

I think we're experiencing the worst of this now. As more data gets aggregated, it becomes easier to find something bad about everyone. Maybe, in our mutually tarnished futures, the collective conscience of employers will see the absurdity of holding something against someone from 10+ years ago.

michaelochurch 14y ago

The main moral debate going on with regard to employment is what it's OK to have happen to someone who's unlucky, and how much regulation we're willing to put in place to protect those who are unlucky. Most people who have bad credit were unlucky. They had unexpected losses of income or medical problems that their insurers wouldn't cover. However, most people would agree that it's OK for someone to be denied a house loan or credit card because of bad luck in the past. Loans aren't rights. They aren't necessities for living. If you can't get a mortgage, rent. It sucks to have your housing choices thus limited, but it's not exactly a life-wrecking catastrophe. Jobs are different. Society has agreed, repeatedly, that bad luck shouldn't make a person unemployable; that everyone has the right to seek appropriate work. We make black-listing illegal and non-compete agreements non-enforceable (if they preclude employment outright as opposed to actual bad-faith competition) for that reason. The problem is that there are a lot of companies that don't want to play by these rules. They really want to be like the comic-strip boss who throws two-thirds of the resumes in the trash and says, "I don't want to work with unlucky people". What I think people should do, personally, if they meet onerous follow-on request is to fake time pressure (or use real time pressure if it exists). "I have a Friday deadline on an offer, and won't be able to turn it down unless I have an offer letter from you." If the offer letter says, "contingent on <X>" where X is something onerous (like a credit check for a non-finance job) then you may want to ask what you get if you don't get the offer, negotiate until it's acceptable (again with the time pressure) and get that in writing.

jiggy2011 14y ago
That can work if you have leveridge , for example having a high demand skillset where they do things like "offers in writing". If you are a kid trying to get minimum wage job with bad credit they'll probably just move on.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  Yeah, you're almost certainly right. It only works if they need people, and then they probably aren't wasting time with long search processes.
eldavido 14y ago
Michael, do you have any evidence for your assertion that "most people who have bad credit were unlucky"?
- walshemj 14y ago
  In the USA any nontrivial medical condition will do it - glad I am in the UK now I am on the kidney transplant waiting list :-)