5 ms·

Wow, so many comments missed the entire point of both articles. McDonald, in the WSJ, said that if you don't at least try to understand some of the tech behind

by mwexler 13y ago

Wow, so many comments missed the entire point of both articles. McDonald, in the WSJ, said that if you don't at least try to understand some of the tech behind the scenes, you are basically a tool and won't get hired by him and other modern CEOs for any of his business roles. He didn't say that you have to BECOME a programmer, or even try; he just said to walk a mile in developer shoes to recognize some of what it's like. TypicalProg says that there is more to programming than just hacking on python for a weekend... Both are true, and both are different points. So many comments on HN about "clueless bosses", yet here's a guy who says, in the WSJ for all to hear, that he wants to eliminate that. He doesn't say he wants to replace real devs with weekend-warriors. He says that if you want to work in the real world, you need to understand some of the tech behind the scenes. How is this different from bankers learning finance, or doctors learning about medicine? B/c, as it turns out, EVERY job touches tech, and his point is that if you don't suck it up and learn some tech, no matter what job you do, you won't do as well as you could in it. He's not expecting everyone to code, he's expecting everyone to have some appreciation of _what it takes to code_. I'm kind of astonished at the defensive comments, actually. I too require that anyone working for me learn about the tech behind the magic. Why? Because it creates RESPECT for the developers. Every negative comment about clueless bosses reflects a time when a developer has been subject to a lack of _respect_ and _appreciation_ for what it takes to make production-level digital experiences. McDonald appear to recognizes that flaw, and is trying to fix it. He admits he's not a dev, and so he tries to understand enough to do no evil. Isn't that the level of respect we would want from any boss, esp a CEO outside of the "tech" or "engineering" group in a company? I don't know him, but I agree with him. I'm surprised to see some of the vitriol. We should be encouraging more folks to try programming to learn that it's harder than it looks in some cases, easier in others, and overall, deserves some more respect as both a technical but also creative art. And that it's rapidly becoming a necessary knowledge for working in the modern age.

Deestan 13y ago
> McDonald appear to recognizes that flaw, and is trying to fix it. He admits he's not a dev, and so he tries to understand enough to do no evil. But as TP said, a bit of programming teaches you nothing useful about managing tech. If I'm going to deal with builders in my job, it doesn't help anyone that I spend a weekend building a bird feeder. They talk structural integrity and insulation levels to me, and my experience based managing "How do you assure the planks are aligned correctly? I have some extra nails in my shed - can I reduce costs by donating them to the project?" does nothing but annoy and insult. As a techie, my job is to make technical decisions, and translate technical considerations to the business people. I do not expect them to understand my field; I expect them to respect my expertise.
- blowski 13y ago
  I think the point the OP is making is not that you should learn programming so that you can tell programmers what to do, but that you cannot even be in the meeting if you don't understand how a program works. So in terms of your analogy, if building the bird feeder was necessary for you to understand the difference between a nail and a plank so that you could at least have a conversation with the builders, then it was a very good idea.
- Elhana 13y ago
  Clueless people are like kids - they will respect you more if they understand you. You will end up explaining them why it is not a good idea to make a bird feeder with a plywood and glue, like they want you to do.
  - walshemj 13y ago
    Of course not with my old mech eng technician hat on you use plywood, glue and a BFO staple gun to hold it together while the glue cures :-) You would be surprised how strong you can make a plywood structure using this method. To get curves you might need to steam the plywood into place though.
Elhana 13y ago
Agree to that. I'm not a programmer, I can't design and write big applications, but I can do some hacking on existing code, I can write my own small scripts etc. I understand that I don't have full expertise and I always listen to our devs, however it really helps me when I understand what they are talking about and I listen to them. Also since I can quickly make some stuff from code I can google on the web, I'm much more productive than the average Joe when I got some repetitive task: make some excel function to deal with ugly data parsing, automate some data entry with auto-it or python+selenium, make some basic sql queries when I need a quick report... On the other hand half of the people I work with can't write a simple vlookup formula or getting confused when it doesn't match a text to number, despite having excel in their CV. When a person knows how computer magic works is only a benefit in my opinion and would be a strong bonus point for a job candidate.
zzzcpan 13y ago
> I too require that anyone working for me learn about the tech behind the magic. > Why? Because it creates RESPECT for the developers. Do you have any evidence to support that statement? I don't think respect comes from knowing couple of things behind the magic and even related to that knowledge in any way. I tend to think that people who have mastered something respect others' expertise a lot more, than people who haven't.
- cafard 13y ago
  Anecdotal evidence tending the other way: I worked for a small company years ago where the owner had an almost superstitious respect for the programmers because he had tried and failed to learn some programming. Everyone else--including people who knew far about the workings of the systems than he did--he regarded as readily replaceable and looked down on.
  - zzzcpan 13y ago
    I worked for a tiny company once where the owner was a self-taught programmer. He respected sysadmins and knew nothing about linux, but never respected programmers.
- mrxd 13y ago
  Agreed. Dilbert is a popular comic strip because people recognize the situations in their own lives. This suggests that the "pointed-headed boss" problem is much more common - bosses who think they know about technology because they've had some superficial exposure like taking a programming class, going to IT conferences, etc. To me, Kirk McDonald comes off as clueless and arrogant as Dilbert's boss. Calling himself "your next potential dream boss", using weird phrases that no one uses like "speaking computer code," and believing that taking a summer programming class means you can provide development effort estimates to clients!
  - greenyoda 13y ago
    Exactly. Anyone who calls himself "your next potential dream boss" is almost certainly not.
onemorepassword 13y ago
Doing some coding is does not help anyone understand what a programmer does, just like driving you car around the block doesn't help you understand what a Formula 1 driver does. The two are only rudimentary related, and the notion that doing some basic coding is enough to understand, let alone get some appreciation of what it takes to code is insulting. That's not "walking a mile in developer shoes", it's just picking them up and see what size they are... It will have the exact opposite result of creating respect for the developers. It equates developers to simple codemonkeys. There many things you can do to get a better understanding of software development, and it's wonderful if non-programmers that have to work with or manage engineers would make the effort to do just that. But Mr. McDonald's ideas about programming and what to do to get a better understanding of it are based on patronizing and insulting prejudices. There's no respect there. Also, respect doesn't require fucking about with code. I can respect the craftsmanship of a plumber and the skill and knowledge of a surgeon without having to fix a boiler or cut open a human being, thank you very much. Come to think of it, McDonald is actually insulting the abilities of people on both sides of the equation. The only person who mr. McDonald seems to be genuinely impressed with is mr. McDonald.

by mwexler 13y ago

Deestan 13y ago

> McDonald appear to recognizes that flaw, and is trying to fix it. He admits he's not a dev, and so he tries to understand enough to do no evil. But as TP said, a bit of programming teaches you nothing useful about managing tech. If I'm going to deal with builders in my job, it doesn't help anyone that I spend a weekend building a bird feeder. They talk structural integrity and insulation levels to me, and my experience based managing "How do you assure the planks are aligned correctly? I have some extra nails in my shed - can I reduce costs by donating them to the project?" does nothing but annoy and insult. As a techie, my job is to make technical decisions, and translate technical considerations to the business people. I do not expect them to understand my field; I expect them to respect my expertise.

blowski 13y ago
I think the point the OP is making is not that you should learn programming so that you can tell programmers what to do, but that you cannot even be in the meeting if you don't understand how a program works. So in terms of your analogy, if building the bird feeder was necessary for you to understand the difference between a nail and a plank so that you could at least have a conversation with the builders, then it was a very good idea.
Elhana 13y ago
Clueless people are like kids - they will respect you more if they understand you. You will end up explaining them why it is not a good idea to make a bird feeder with a plywood and glue, like they want you to do.
- walshemj 13y ago
  Of course not with my old mech eng technician hat on you use plywood, glue and a BFO staple gun to hold it together while the glue cures :-) You would be surprised how strong you can make a plywood structure using this method. To get curves you might need to steam the plywood into place though.

Elhana 13y ago

Agree to that. I'm not a programmer, I can't design and write big applications, but I can do some hacking on existing code, I can write my own small scripts etc. I understand that I don't have full expertise and I always listen to our devs, however it really helps me when I understand what they are talking about and I listen to them. Also since I can quickly make some stuff from code I can google on the web, I'm much more productive than the average Joe when I got some repetitive task: make some excel function to deal with ugly data parsing, automate some data entry with auto-it or python+selenium, make some basic sql queries when I need a quick report... On the other hand half of the people I work with can't write a simple vlookup formula or getting confused when it doesn't match a text to number, despite having excel in their CV. When a person knows how computer magic works is only a benefit in my opinion and would be a strong bonus point for a job candidate.

zzzcpan 13y ago

> I too require that anyone working for me learn about the tech behind the magic. > Why? Because it creates RESPECT for the developers. Do you have any evidence to support that statement? I don't think respect comes from knowing couple of things behind the magic and even related to that knowledge in any way. I tend to think that people who have mastered something respect others' expertise a lot more, than people who haven't.

cafard 13y ago
Anecdotal evidence tending the other way: I worked for a small company years ago where the owner had an almost superstitious respect for the programmers because he had tried and failed to learn some programming. Everyone else--including people who knew far about the workings of the systems than he did--he regarded as readily replaceable and looked down on.
- zzzcpan 13y ago
  I worked for a tiny company once where the owner was a self-taught programmer. He respected sysadmins and knew nothing about linux, but never respected programmers.
mrxd 13y ago
Agreed. Dilbert is a popular comic strip because people recognize the situations in their own lives. This suggests that the "pointed-headed boss" problem is much more common - bosses who think they know about technology because they've had some superficial exposure like taking a programming class, going to IT conferences, etc. To me, Kirk McDonald comes off as clueless and arrogant as Dilbert's boss. Calling himself "your next potential dream boss", using weird phrases that no one uses like "speaking computer code," and believing that taking a summer programming class means you can provide development effort estimates to clients!
- greenyoda 13y ago
  Exactly. Anyone who calls himself "your next potential dream boss" is almost certainly not.

onemorepassword 13y ago

Doing some coding is does not help anyone understand what a programmer does, just like driving you car around the block doesn't help you understand what a Formula 1 driver does. The two are only rudimentary related, and the notion that doing some basic coding is enough to understand, let alone get some appreciation of what it takes to code is insulting. That's not "walking a mile in developer shoes", it's just picking them up and see what size they are... It will have the exact opposite result of creating respect for the developers. It equates developers to simple codemonkeys. There many things you can do to get a better understanding of software development, and it's wonderful if non-programmers that have to work with or manage engineers would make the effort to do just that. But Mr. McDonald's ideas about programming and what to do to get a better understanding of it are based on patronizing and insulting prejudices. There's no respect there. Also, respect doesn't require fucking about with code. I can respect the craftsmanship of a plumber and the skill and knowledge of a surgeon without having to fix a boiler or cut open a human being, thank you very much. Come to think of it, McDonald is actually insulting the abilities of people on both sides of the equation. The only person who mr. McDonald seems to be genuinely impressed with is mr. McDonald.