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I think as software developers, many of us are very disconnected with the lives of the very poor in our society. There are people out there working multiple ful

I think as software developers, many of us are very disconnected with the lives of the very poor in our society. There are people out there working multiple full time jobs, or working full-time while raising young kids by themselves. It boggles my mind that you would consider these people lazy because they're dead on their feet when they arrive home... probably even software developers can think of days when they're too tired to cook, is it really so hard to imagine having to work so hard that those days are every day?

ctdonath 13y ago
I know it boggles your mind. I too shared the mindset susceptible to "I can't". Amazing how being dead for a few hours can change your perspective on such things. It must be done. Do it. Eradicate "I can't" from your vocabulary. Cut out all superfluous activity & costs. Unless you're in fact passing out onto the floor, you have the energy and time to do it. Yes, every day. I'm so far past tired and overwhelmed that they're just not excuses any more - it all still needs doing, and the alternative is being where I've been and I'm not keen on going back there.
- scarmig 13y ago
  You're relying very heavily on this "well it's physically possible, that means if someone doesn't do it they don't really want to" trope. It's pretty lazy, I've got to say. Stop using it like a sledgehammer. No, don't say "I can't help but use it like a sledgehammer": try to make a new, novel suggestion beyond "just try harder!" Evidence that it's pretty damn lazy: you can use it anywhere. A Roman slave, upset about being worked really hard? "Well, other slaves have worked hard enough to buy their own freedom. Why don't you?" A poor person in rural India? "Well, at least one multibillionaire started out in the same position as you, and that was a couple decades ago in worse conditions. Try harder!" Defacto it's a crutch to shift responsibility away from the social structures we live in.
  - ctdonath 13y ago
    Again, I'll acknowledge some people truly can't. I've found they're a fairly small subset of those claiming/imputed "can't". We're not talking Roman slaves here. "Work 'til you drop or we'll kill you" isn't at issue. A poor person in rural India really is poor. Under $2/day income (world median) is poor. My sympathies and help. Blaming the social structures WE live in, no. Assistance, tools, opportunities, etc are prolific; if you're not using them, it's not because they're not available to you. Yes I'm leaning on the "if someone doesn't do it they don't really want to" trope. That's largely the POINT in this thread, as pointed out by others too. I just see far too much "golly, going to Walmart and buying beef/beans/sauce/seasoning for $5 and cooking it for 10 minutes to feed 4 is just too hard", which a poor rural Indian or a Roman slave would look on at with sheer astonishment.
    - msutherl 13y ago
      Required to make your own food everyday are both physical and mental abilities. Low-income Americans are certainly more than physically capable of putting together three meals per day, but they may lack the motivation, inspiration, knowledge, or skill required to do so. I certainly needed my sous-chef best friend living with me and teaching me the virtues of cooking for 3 months to really get the skills and habits down. This is not something to argue about. The best you can do is empower people, so stop arguing on discussion forums – go forth and empower!
- freehunter 13y ago
  Do you know what happens when you break your leg but keep walking on it without going to a doctor? It keeps causing damage, until that damage is irreparable and there's a bone hanging out of your useless leg. That's pretty easy to visualize, yeah? It's harder to imagine the same thing going on but mentally. It's hard to see the true damage that repeated exposure to stressful situations causes to your mind and psyche. Sure, sugar bombs do damage. So does working until you're in fact passing out on the floor. Your rah-rah attitude might work for you, and I'm glad for that. But before you go all motivational speaker on everyone else, maybe consider that other people aren't as mentally strong as you seem to be. Some people can't carry a 50lb weight 24x7 for days on end. Likewise some people can't carry the mental weight of two jobs, a family, and bills still being unpaid plus the thought of working for hours when they get home to make a meal.
  - RBerenguel 13y ago
    I just got here in passing, and I have to admit I'm kind on the side of ctdonath here. Currently, I'm working 3 jobs (one is 6 hours a day, the other two are two projects I'm working on that are 2-4 hours a day, total.) In addition to this, I'm finishing my PhD (or trying, time is scarce lately) but I still find the 10-15 minutes it takes to open the gas stove and prepare some sauteed vegetables, the 10 minutes it takes to prepare a lettuce and lots-o-more-things salad, or the 5 minutes it takes to prepare crispy bacon. The "cooking for hours" mentality is bullshit. With the rest of your points I can agree (as well as I agree with ctdonath's points,) since there is no universal truth in what people are doing with their time, and how much they can endure. But with the waste of time cooking takes, I just can't. It's false. I've cooked 3 course meals for 8 people on special occasions (so it's more elaborate than usual) and only in this case it took me more than 30 minutes to do it. It was 1h30. Of course this may seem like a lot, but I don't do custard everyday and it takes quite a long time. *Edit: misspelled OP's name (sorry)
    - freehunter 13y ago
      Well it's kind of a false equivalency to try to say that 30 minutes cooking dinner is the same as 30 minutes preparing convenience food. Cooking meat, cooking beans, cooking rice, sauteing veggies, preparing a salad, whatever, is not the same as putting a frozen lasagna in the oven for 30 minutes while you veg out on the couch and unwind. Sure, it's 30 minutes, but what really counts is what you're doing in that 30 minutes. If you're watching your food, you're working. If you're watching TV while your food cooks to the tune of the prepared directions, that's completely different. That doesn't even take into account the time spent at the store picking out individual ingredients vs just grabbing a frozen meal and running out the door. I'm not defending poor eating habits, at least I'm not trying to. The point of my post was to point out how self-righteous ctdonath is being in the majority of his posts in this topic. "You're not tired unless you're passing out standing up" is just bullshit. Mental stress is a real thing, and it cannot be discounted. I don't know you, but I can guess that if you're doing a PhD, you have what it takes to handle significant amounts of mental stress. You have to, or you wouldn't have even gotten through undergrad with the will to pursue two more difficult degrees. Your single parent dual factory worker who grew up in a blue collar family and sees no prospect for future success might not have that same level of motivation, which is why I called out ctdonath for being a motivational speaker. What works for you will not work for everyone. It's difficult to see mental injury and duress. Stress is not as visible as a broken leg, nor as easy to treat. People should eat proper, yes, but telling them "it's not hard, you're just lazy" is by far not the proper way to get them motivated.
- itsybitsycoder 13y ago
  I was a poor kid too. Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is great if you can do it, but it's not a sustainable, universal solution. Whether you recognize it or not, we've had advantages that other poor kids didn't -- even if that just means a lack of disadvantages. Let's not pull up the ladder behind us.

ctdonath 13y ago

I know it boggles your mind. I too shared the mindset susceptible to "I can't". Amazing how being dead for a few hours can change your perspective on such things. It must be done. Do it. Eradicate "I can't" from your vocabulary. Cut out all superfluous activity & costs. Unless you're in fact passing out onto the floor, you have the energy and time to do it. Yes, every day. I'm so far past tired and overwhelmed that they're just not excuses any more - it all still needs doing, and the alternative is being where I've been and I'm not keen on going back there.

scarmig 13y ago
You're relying very heavily on this "well it's physically possible, that means if someone doesn't do it they don't really want to" trope. It's pretty lazy, I've got to say. Stop using it like a sledgehammer. No, don't say "I can't help but use it like a sledgehammer": try to make a new, novel suggestion beyond "just try harder!" Evidence that it's pretty damn lazy: you can use it anywhere. A Roman slave, upset about being worked really hard? "Well, other slaves have worked hard enough to buy their own freedom. Why don't you?" A poor person in rural India? "Well, at least one multibillionaire started out in the same position as you, and that was a couple decades ago in worse conditions. Try harder!" Defacto it's a crutch to shift responsibility away from the social structures we live in.
- ctdonath 13y ago
  Again, I'll acknowledge some people truly can't. I've found they're a fairly small subset of those claiming/imputed "can't". We're not talking Roman slaves here. "Work 'til you drop or we'll kill you" isn't at issue. A poor person in rural India really is poor. Under $2/day income (world median) is poor. My sympathies and help. Blaming the social structures WE live in, no. Assistance, tools, opportunities, etc are prolific; if you're not using them, it's not because they're not available to you. Yes I'm leaning on the "if someone doesn't do it they don't really want to" trope. That's largely the POINT in this thread, as pointed out by others too. I just see far too much "golly, going to Walmart and buying beef/beans/sauce/seasoning for $5 and cooking it for 10 minutes to feed 4 is just too hard", which a poor rural Indian or a Roman slave would look on at with sheer astonishment.
  - msutherl 13y ago
    Required to make your own food everyday are both physical and mental abilities. Low-income Americans are certainly more than physically capable of putting together three meals per day, but they may lack the motivation, inspiration, knowledge, or skill required to do so. I certainly needed my sous-chef best friend living with me and teaching me the virtues of cooking for 3 months to really get the skills and habits down. This is not something to argue about. The best you can do is empower people, so stop arguing on discussion forums – go forth and empower!
freehunter 13y ago
Do you know what happens when you break your leg but keep walking on it without going to a doctor? It keeps causing damage, until that damage is irreparable and there's a bone hanging out of your useless leg. That's pretty easy to visualize, yeah? It's harder to imagine the same thing going on but mentally. It's hard to see the true damage that repeated exposure to stressful situations causes to your mind and psyche. Sure, sugar bombs do damage. So does working until you're in fact passing out on the floor. Your rah-rah attitude might work for you, and I'm glad for that. But before you go all motivational speaker on everyone else, maybe consider that other people aren't as mentally strong as you seem to be. Some people can't carry a 50lb weight 24x7 for days on end. Likewise some people can't carry the mental weight of two jobs, a family, and bills still being unpaid plus the thought of working for hours when they get home to make a meal.
- RBerenguel 13y ago
  I just got here in passing, and I have to admit I'm kind on the side of ctdonath here. Currently, I'm working 3 jobs (one is 6 hours a day, the other two are two projects I'm working on that are 2-4 hours a day, total.) In addition to this, I'm finishing my PhD (or trying, time is scarce lately) but I still find the 10-15 minutes it takes to open the gas stove and prepare some sauteed vegetables, the 10 minutes it takes to prepare a lettuce and lots-o-more-things salad, or the 5 minutes it takes to prepare crispy bacon. The "cooking for hours" mentality is bullshit. With the rest of your points I can agree (as well as I agree with ctdonath's points,) since there is no universal truth in what people are doing with their time, and how much they can endure. But with the waste of time cooking takes, I just can't. It's false. I've cooked 3 course meals for 8 people on special occasions (so it's more elaborate than usual) and only in this case it took me more than 30 minutes to do it. It was 1h30. Of course this may seem like a lot, but I don't do custard everyday and it takes quite a long time. *Edit: misspelled OP's name (sorry)
  - freehunter 13y ago
    Well it's kind of a false equivalency to try to say that 30 minutes cooking dinner is the same as 30 minutes preparing convenience food. Cooking meat, cooking beans, cooking rice, sauteing veggies, preparing a salad, whatever, is not the same as putting a frozen lasagna in the oven for 30 minutes while you veg out on the couch and unwind. Sure, it's 30 minutes, but what really counts is what you're doing in that 30 minutes. If you're watching your food, you're working. If you're watching TV while your food cooks to the tune of the prepared directions, that's completely different. That doesn't even take into account the time spent at the store picking out individual ingredients vs just grabbing a frozen meal and running out the door. I'm not defending poor eating habits, at least I'm not trying to. The point of my post was to point out how self-righteous ctdonath is being in the majority of his posts in this topic. "You're not tired unless you're passing out standing up" is just bullshit. Mental stress is a real thing, and it cannot be discounted. I don't know you, but I can guess that if you're doing a PhD, you have what it takes to handle significant amounts of mental stress. You have to, or you wouldn't have even gotten through undergrad with the will to pursue two more difficult degrees. Your single parent dual factory worker who grew up in a blue collar family and sees no prospect for future success might not have that same level of motivation, which is why I called out ctdonath for being a motivational speaker. What works for you will not work for everyone. It's difficult to see mental injury and duress. Stress is not as visible as a broken leg, nor as easy to treat. People should eat proper, yes, but telling them "it's not hard, you're just lazy" is by far not the proper way to get them motivated.
itsybitsycoder 13y ago
I was a poor kid too. Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is great if you can do it, but it's not a sustainable, universal solution. Whether you recognize it or not, we've had advantages that other poor kids didn't -- even if that just means a lack of disadvantages. Let's not pull up the ladder behind us.