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I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that mathematical constructs are part of the universe. David Deutsch has a method for ascertaining whether som

I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that mathematical constructs are part of the universe. David Deutsch has a method for ascertaining whether something can can be said to exist or not - ask whether it "kicks back" when you interact with it, in the sense that simulating the response of the thing you're considering in a totally convincing way would involve an effort as large as building a new universe for that thing to exist in. Rocks "exist" because, if you wanted to build a totally convincing simulation of a rock, you'd need to include all of modern physics as we currently understand it. Other minds "exist" because simulating them convincingly would basically require you to construct a true articificial intelligence (strong AI). Mathematics "exists" because giving someone the genuine experience of doing mathematics when they really weren't would involve a simulation of almost unfathomable complexity. There is a very real truth in the statement that '1 + 1 = 2', or the statement that there are arbitrarily long arithmetic progressions of prime numbers, or any number of other mathematical results. The world of mathematics is a very real part of the universe, that "kicks back" by constantly surprising us when we think about it. So I don't think the article, which is very well written and researched, deserves the middlebrow "Um, no" scorn that you treated it to.

brazzy 13y ago
> I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that mathematical constructs are part of the universe. Well, one could say that we "create" them using our minds, which certainly are, but that's deep into philosophical territory. > Mathematics "exists" because giving someone the genuine experience of doing mathematics when they really weren't would involve a simulation of almost unfathomable complexity. Sounds to me like a misapplication of the method - the complexity arises from simulating the response of a person to math, not from simulating math. By that standard, all fiction is "a very real part of the universe". > So I don't think the article, which is very well written and researched, deserves the middlebrow "Um, no" scorn that you treated it to. That concerned on one statement, not the entire article (which I found fascinating as well). Yes, I have to admit that this is rather smartassy, but I actially feel that, quite independant of this article, it is an important and amazing realization that few people make.
- mcguire 13y ago
  "By that standard, all fiction is 'a very real part of the universe'." Strangely, I believe that statement supports crntaylor's argument, being the point of fiction as far as I can see.
pasquinelli 13y ago
"I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that mathematical constructs are part of the universe." oh, sure, but everything is part of the universe. human thought, for instance, is part of the universe. and i'd say that's what mathematics is about.
bbq 13y ago
> I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that mathematical constructs are part of the universe. What if there are 0 universes? Does 0 exist without any universes?

brazzy 13y ago

> I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that mathematical constructs are part of the universe. Well, one could say that we "create" them using our minds, which certainly are, but that's deep into philosophical territory. > Mathematics "exists" because giving someone the genuine experience of doing mathematics when they really weren't would involve a simulation of almost unfathomable complexity. Sounds to me like a misapplication of the method - the complexity arises from simulating the response of a person to math, not from simulating math. By that standard, all fiction is "a very real part of the universe". > So I don't think the article, which is very well written and researched, deserves the middlebrow "Um, no" scorn that you treated it to. That concerned on one statement, not the entire article (which I found fascinating as well). Yes, I have to admit that this is rather smartassy, but I actially feel that, quite independant of this article, it is an important and amazing realization that few people make.

mcguire 13y ago
"By that standard, all fiction is 'a very real part of the universe'." Strangely, I believe that statement supports crntaylor's argument, being the point of fiction as far as I can see.

pasquinelli 13y ago

"I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that mathematical constructs are part of the universe." oh, sure, but everything is part of the universe. human thought, for instance, is part of the universe. and i'd say that's what mathematics is about.

bbq 13y ago

> I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that mathematical constructs are part of the universe. What if there are 0 universes? Does 0 exist without any universes?