5 ms·

How To Live Forever

25 points by reitzensteinm 18y ago

Allocator2008 18y ago
I think to the best of my knowledge that in teleporatation when one grabs the quantum information from the original location one destroys the physical content from the original location, then transmits the information to the second location, and rebuilds the original physical content. In other words the original physical content is destroyed in the act of analyzing the content. So there is not a danger of leaving a "copy of oneself" at the original location. Necessarily to measure quantum spin and so on, the original physical material is destroyed, or more precisely, is re-arranged into indecipherable form.
- ericb 18y ago
  Good point. One question. If you know the exact location of all the particles as you do this, and you "teleport" them, but at the same time create a copy in the old location with the same quantum information, aren't you back to the same problem?
  - Allocator2008 18y ago
    Had not thought about that. I suppose once one has all the quantum information one needs, one could "splice the signal" into an arbitrary amount of copies. Unless there was some entanglement going on. That is, if Origin Point and Destination Point where put into some kind of EPR entangled state to preclude both points having a "copy" at the same time.
systemtrigger 18y ago
Insightful perspective on what might happen if you gradually augmented your brain. Kurzweil covered a lot in The Singularity is Near; this narrative on consciousness is more playful. The brandy in the chocolate here is his existential musings on the Omega Point - blew my mind.
Herring 18y ago
"The problem, it seems to me, is discontinuity." It's really just a philosophical problem. It's also hard to explain why.
- rw 18y ago
  "just" a philosophical problem!
russell 18y ago
Several decades back I read a SF story (by Fred Pohl?) where the crew of a near lightspeed craft needed to be continually replaced by new members teleported in, because the existing crew was being killed by radiation. For some nominal payment you stepped into a booth and a copy of you was teleported to the starship. You collected your payment and went and had a nice dinner or somesuch. Meanwhile your copy on the starship tried to cope while dying some horrible death. The angst of who is me and who is alive and who is dead has kept me from trying teleportation or brain downloads. I know that, when the organic part is shut off, my personality will continue to live. But is it really me?
- moe 18y ago
  I know that, when the organic part is shut off, my personality will continue to live. But is it really me? This will be an interesting discussion to have with your other self; "Who of us is the real me?". I think the question is largely irrelevant. The moment that you make an 100% exact physical copy of yourself there are obviously two "me"'s. Just that the other me doesn't have any connection to your "local" me anymore. From the POV of the original the copy is just another person that, by coincidence, happens to have the exact same expiriences and thought patterns as oneself. And vice versa. Nonetheless that initial discussion would indeed be interesting to watch. Imagine you can create an instant-copy of yourself and are then immediately confronted with your other self. I bet the conversation would begin with a lot of "jinx" and "Uh, yeah, I was gonna say the exact same thing".
  - thwarted 18y ago
    This will be an interesting discussion to have with your other self; "Who of us is the real me?". The protagonist in Altered Carbon has this discussion, in the context of which set of memories are worth having, after he has to duplicate himself to another body to solve a crime.
- stavrianos 18y ago
  kinda kills the story I know, but while we're copying anyways, you'd think that they could just replenish the ship with copies of the original crew?
stavrianos 18y ago
If you believe in an uncopyable soul, a teleporter like that about would be a way of creating actual, honest-to-god P-zombies. Fun! On the other hand, if you don't, then it doesn't seem like it's such a big deal. Diaspora, by Greg Egan, has a lot of this kinda thing happening in it (in fairness, they're software minds, which simplifies things).
- derefr 18y ago
  Indeed, Greg Egan's short story "Learning to be Me" is on exactly the argument (both sides!) that the article is trying to make: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/361474/learning_to_be_me.html http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/361474/learning_to_be_me.html
  - pfedor 18y ago
    Let me use this opportunity to make a plug for another excellent writer. If you like Greg Egan, chances are you will like Stanisław Lem, who tackled some of the very similar questions in his work. One good place to start is: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Diaries-Further-Reminiscences-Tichy/dp/0156849054/ http://www.amazon.com/Star-Diaries-Further-Reminiscences-Tic...
- JabavuAdams 18y ago
  P-zombies are bullshit. Imagine an apple that's really a pear, except it's indistinguishable from an apple. Imagine some words that are not bullshit, but are indistinguishable from bullshit.
  - mannicken 18y ago
    Technically, everyone but you (me, in my case) is a p-zombie.
    - JabavuAdams 18y ago
      Well, not if you (I) don't believe in p-zombies. If I'm imagining an electron that's also a skyscraper, my brain isn't creating a little one in my head. The fact that I can imagine a thing doesn't mean that it could ever exist as the thing itself. It just means that I'm choosing to assign (possibly contradictory) answers to questions about the thing. Is it an electron? Y Is it a skyscraper? Y So how does that work? ...
geuis 18y ago
Loved this article. Its the first such article in a long time that essentially sums-up my own thoughts on this topic. I also appreciate all of the other commenters (and HN overall) because everyone is commenting on this with respect, open-mindedness, and thought. Its way, WAY too common for people who don't really understand what's going on to say how this is all sci-fi, won't/can't happen, etc. The great thing about being one of the people that wants to upload is that eventually, all the people who don't believe I'm still alive will die off.
enneff 18y ago
Topical: http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/BORDER/Complete/Border.html http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/BORDER/Complete/Bor...
buggy_code 18y ago
My favorite variant on this is: every 20 years, have science advance enough to extend everyone's life by 30 years (doesn't take care of things like getting hit by bus, but takes care of 'regular' life extension) (iirc, there was some ted talk on this)

25 points by reitzensteinm 18y ago

Allocator2008 18y ago

I think to the best of my knowledge that in teleporatation when one grabs the quantum information from the original location one destroys the physical content from the original location, then transmits the information to the second location, and rebuilds the original physical content. In other words the original physical content is destroyed in the act of analyzing the content. So there is not a danger of leaving a "copy of oneself" at the original location. Necessarily to measure quantum spin and so on, the original physical material is destroyed, or more precisely, is re-arranged into indecipherable form.

ericb 18y ago
Good point. One question. If you know the exact location of all the particles as you do this, and you "teleport" them, but at the same time create a copy in the old location with the same quantum information, aren't you back to the same problem?
- Allocator2008 18y ago
  Had not thought about that. I suppose once one has all the quantum information one needs, one could "splice the signal" into an arbitrary amount of copies. Unless there was some entanglement going on. That is, if Origin Point and Destination Point where put into some kind of EPR entangled state to preclude both points having a "copy" at the same time.

systemtrigger 18y ago

Insightful perspective on what might happen if you gradually augmented your brain. Kurzweil covered a lot in The Singularity is Near; this narrative on consciousness is more playful. The brandy in the chocolate here is his existential musings on the Omega Point - blew my mind.

Herring 18y ago

"The problem, it seems to me, is discontinuity." It's really just a philosophical problem. It's also hard to explain why.

rw 18y ago
"just" a philosophical problem!

russell 18y ago

Several decades back I read a SF story (by Fred Pohl?) where the crew of a near lightspeed craft needed to be continually replaced by new members teleported in, because the existing crew was being killed by radiation. For some nominal payment you stepped into a booth and a copy of you was teleported to the starship. You collected your payment and went and had a nice dinner or somesuch. Meanwhile your copy on the starship tried to cope while dying some horrible death. The angst of who is me and who is alive and who is dead has kept me from trying teleportation or brain downloads. I know that, when the organic part is shut off, my personality will continue to live. But is it really me?

moe 18y ago
I know that, when the organic part is shut off, my personality will continue to live. But is it really me? This will be an interesting discussion to have with your other self; "Who of us is the real me?". I think the question is largely irrelevant. The moment that you make an 100% exact physical copy of yourself there are obviously two "me"'s. Just that the other me doesn't have any connection to your "local" me anymore. From the POV of the original the copy is just another person that, by coincidence, happens to have the exact same expiriences and thought patterns as oneself. And vice versa. Nonetheless that initial discussion would indeed be interesting to watch. Imagine you can create an instant-copy of yourself and are then immediately confronted with your other self. I bet the conversation would begin with a lot of "jinx" and "Uh, yeah, I was gonna say the exact same thing".
- thwarted 18y ago
  This will be an interesting discussion to have with your other self; "Who of us is the real me?". The protagonist in Altered Carbon has this discussion, in the context of which set of memories are worth having, after he has to duplicate himself to another body to solve a crime.
stavrianos 18y ago
kinda kills the story I know, but while we're copying anyways, you'd think that they could just replenish the ship with copies of the original crew?

stavrianos 18y ago

If you believe in an uncopyable soul, a teleporter like that about would be a way of creating actual, honest-to-god P-zombies. Fun! On the other hand, if you don't, then it doesn't seem like it's such a big deal. Diaspora, by Greg Egan, has a lot of this kinda thing happening in it (in fairness, they're software minds, which simplifies things).

derefr 18y ago
Indeed, Greg Egan's short story "Learning to be Me" is on exactly the argument (both sides!) that the article is trying to make: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/361474/learning_to_be_me.html http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/361474/learning_to_be_me.html
- pfedor 18y ago
  Let me use this opportunity to make a plug for another excellent writer. If you like Greg Egan, chances are you will like Stanisław Lem, who tackled some of the very similar questions in his work. One good place to start is: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Diaries-Further-Reminiscences-Tichy/dp/0156849054/ http://www.amazon.com/Star-Diaries-Further-Reminiscences-Tic...
JabavuAdams 18y ago
P-zombies are bullshit. Imagine an apple that's really a pear, except it's indistinguishable from an apple. Imagine some words that are not bullshit, but are indistinguishable from bullshit.
- mannicken 18y ago
  Technically, everyone but you (me, in my case) is a p-zombie.
  - JabavuAdams 18y ago
    Well, not if you (I) don't believe in p-zombies. If I'm imagining an electron that's also a skyscraper, my brain isn't creating a little one in my head. The fact that I can imagine a thing doesn't mean that it could ever exist as the thing itself. It just means that I'm choosing to assign (possibly contradictory) answers to questions about the thing. Is it an electron? Y Is it a skyscraper? Y So how does that work? ...

geuis 18y ago

Loved this article. Its the first such article in a long time that essentially sums-up my own thoughts on this topic. I also appreciate all of the other commenters (and HN overall) because everyone is commenting on this with respect, open-mindedness, and thought. Its way, WAY too common for people who don't really understand what's going on to say how this is all sci-fi, won't/can't happen, etc. The great thing about being one of the people that wants to upload is that eventually, all the people who don't believe I'm still alive will die off.

enneff 18y ago

Topical: http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/BORDER/Complete/Border.html http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/BORDER/Complete/Bor...

buggy_code 18y ago

My favorite variant on this is: every 20 years, have science advance enough to extend everyone's life by 30 years (doesn't take care of things like getting hit by bus, but takes care of 'regular' life extension) (iirc, there was some ted talk on this)