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Hey, thanks for sharing that! So Cal Newport is effectively saying that humans are inherently competitive, and they'll feel passionate about something once the

by elaineo 13y ago

Hey, thanks for sharing that! So Cal Newport is effectively saying that humans are inherently competitive, and they'll feel passionate about something once they start kicking ass at it. That certainly helps, and I think it would hold true for people who start off with something they already kind of like. But then there are all those stories of kids whose parents forced them to ice skate or take piano lessons until it completely squelched any passion the kid had for the activity. So, I'm not sure I completely agree with CN.

jholman 13y ago
I'm not sure "competitive" captures it, exactly. Sort of? I mean, obviously some people like being better than other people, sure. But I think some people just like being _good_, full stop. But of course you don't know what "good" means without comparing yourself to other people, which means it's sort of epistemically connected to competition. But I think it's still not the same thing. ALSO, I can think of several thought experiments that appear to contradict CN, and I'll add yours to the list, because I totally agree. I've met kids like that, including an ex-friend who rebounded from his parents' forced piano lessons so hard that he ended up confined to the psych ward. He mastered piano AND violin, but he didn't develop passion for either. Here's another example that is contrastive with CN. I personally am fascinated by dissecting P&P RPG rules, and assessing which are "good" according to an ill-defined metric that interests no one but me. Does it even make sense to talk about mastery at this activity? I can remember being interested in this when I was a little kid; it's an enduring passion. I don't think it's explicable by "mastery". These situations illustrate what I meant by "this summary only captures one side of passion". ON THE OTHER HAND... I do believe that many-or-all people derive enjoyment from mastery, and at some point this is related to passion. I think the reason I like video games SO MUCH is partly because they let me experience the sensation of mastery, cheaply. When you combine that with a goal of being economically relevant (a goal that I think has both ethical and selfish motivations), it makes sense to cultivate mastery at something useful-and-not-antifun, and hope that the mastery becomes a passion. And to reply to your cousin-comment, I think some people are masterful and passionate about getting the details right, and they can be tax auditors, and their passion overlaps with their work. And some people can be masterful and passionate about intricate systems, and about securing victories, and they can be patent lawyers and their passion overlaps with their work. I am 100% sure there are passionate patent lawyers. And some people can be masterful and passionate about... bullying people? I dunno if anyone can be passionate about debt collection, actually, but two outta three ain't bad.

by elaineo 13y ago

jholman 13y ago

I'm not sure "competitive" captures it, exactly. Sort of? I mean, obviously some people like being better than other people, sure. But I think some people just like being _good_, full stop. But of course you don't know what "good" means without comparing yourself to other people, which means it's sort of epistemically connected to competition. But I think it's still not the same thing. ALSO, I can think of several thought experiments that appear to contradict CN, and I'll add yours to the list, because I totally agree. I've met kids like that, including an ex-friend who rebounded from his parents' forced piano lessons so hard that he ended up confined to the psych ward. He mastered piano AND violin, but he didn't develop passion for either. Here's another example that is contrastive with CN. I personally am fascinated by dissecting P&P RPG rules, and assessing which are "good" according to an ill-defined metric that interests no one but me. Does it even make sense to talk about mastery at this activity? I can remember being interested in this when I was a little kid; it's an enduring passion. I don't think it's explicable by "mastery". These situations illustrate what I meant by "this summary only captures one side of passion". ON THE OTHER HAND... I do believe that many-or-all people derive enjoyment from mastery, and at some point this is related to passion. I think the reason I like video games SO MUCH is partly because they let me experience the sensation of mastery, cheaply. When you combine that with a goal of being economically relevant (a goal that I think has both ethical and selfish motivations), it makes sense to cultivate mastery at something useful-and-not-antifun, and hope that the mastery becomes a passion. And to reply to your cousin-comment, I think some people are masterful and passionate about getting the details right, and they can be tax auditors, and their passion overlaps with their work. And some people can be masterful and passionate about intricate systems, and about securing victories, and they can be patent lawyers and their passion overlaps with their work. I am 100% sure there are passionate patent lawyers. And some people can be masterful and passionate about... bullying people? I dunno if anyone can be passionate about debt collection, actually, but two outta three ain't bad.