5 ms·

You're only focusing on the "electric car" part. By all accounts, the rest of the car is an amazing package, even without the electric motor. I think the questi

by pyre 14y ago

You're only focusing on the "electric car" part. By all accounts, the rest of the car is an amazing package, even without the electric motor. I think the question is why was Tesla able to push the Model S so far ahead of the current industry in those other respects?

codex 14y ago
It's because Tesla makes an extra $7.5K from each car via the federal tax credit and an extra $70M each quarter selling ZEV credits. Without these they would not be profitable. So they have more money to apply to the fit and finish of the car than luxury manufacturers which don't make an electric. It's because Tesla makes an extra $7.5K from each car via the federal tax credit and an extra $70M each quarter selling ZEV credits. Without these they would not be profitable. So they have more money to apply to the fit and finish of the car than luxury manufacturers which don't make an electric. They also benefit from an enormous, low interest DOE loan. To date Tesla has lost more than billion dollars which has not been recouped; that's roughly -$50K per car sold in 2013 ($1B / 20K). In contrast, BMW only makes a profit of +$5K on each of their 1.5M cars sold yearly.
- jfb 14y ago
  But a luxury manufacturer like e.g. Audi gets to reuse engineering work from parent VW and sibling Lamborghini to improve their $100k car. Much of the comparative advantage of the Model S is due directly to the engineering differences of building an electric powertrain; they get to make different tradeoffs than BMW does in, say, an M5. The real nutcutting time will come when an established brand decides to build a high-end electric (the BMW i8, for instance), where they get to combine their much more significant economies of scale with the advantages of an electric drivetrain. EDIT: The i8 is a plug-in hybrid, actually, so it's really a worst of both worlds sort of deal. The point still stands as made, however.
  - codex 14y ago
    I wonder how the marginal cost of an ICE compares with the marginal cost of one or two electric motors + regen + batteries + charger, and how those change over time. I suspect the electric drive train isn't cheaper now, but will be cheaper in a few years.
    - sliverstorm 14y ago
      I suspect aside from the batteries, electric drive train is already cheaper. Modern ICE are ridiculously sophisticated and require advanced manufacturing capabilities.
- jpeg_hero 14y ago
  east coaster?
- cma 14y ago
  If the other manufacturers opened a plant in california, or bought an existing one like Tesla, wouldn't they also get the same ZEV credits which they could sell or use for themselves? > To date Tesla has lost more than billion dollars Are you including liquid assets, like the California plant, as losses? (not accusing you, I haven't looked at their numbers)
  - codex 14y ago
    $1B is roughly the GAAP losses for TSLA since they went public. I think that in order to resell ZEV credits more than 13% of a manufacturer's cars must be electric, which is not true of any other luxury manufacturer.
    - cma 14y ago
      That doesn't add up with this: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tsla+earnings http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tsla+earnings But, that may not be GAAP. Where did you find that total?
      - mikeyouse 14y ago
        You can go to google finance: https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3ATSLA&fstype=ii&ei=IP2LUdCMAYjgiAKrCQ https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3ATSLA&fstype=ii... And then select 'Annual', 'Balance Sheet', and then look at the line item for "Retained Earnings (Accumulated Deficit)" Or alternatively, from TSLA's 2012 10-K: "We incurred a net loss of $396.2 million for the year ended December 31, 2012. In addition, we have accumulated net losses of $1,065.6 million from our inception through December 31, 2012. We have had net losses in each quarter since our inception." Source: Page 31 Here: http://ir.teslamotors.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-13-96241&CIK=1318605 http://ir.teslamotors.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-13-...
        cma 14y ago
        Well then, that's because I was looking at "since going public", since that is what the guy I replied to said. But you and the original poster are right since you are talking about 'since inception'.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  Not to mention, I bet the electric drivetrain is much simpler than existing internal combustion engines. Modern gasoline engines are nothing less than engineering marvels; Tesla, on the other hand, probably gets to devote proportionally more money and effort to other aspects of the car.
rsync 14y ago
"You're only focusing on the "electric car" part. By all accounts, the rest of the car is an amazing package, even without the electric motor. I think the question is why was Tesla able to push the Model S so far ahead of the current industry in those other respects?" This cannot be overstated. I don't like a lot of the Tesla S design - both interior and exterior. Further, my use case(s) don't necessarily lend themselves perfectly to an electric car. But the Tesla has a third row with five-point child harness seats built fucking in[1]. This feature alone changes my life. The existing auto industry answer to carseats and children in general ranges from "makes me want to kill myself to insert/remove carseat" to "merely makes me want to kill others". How much of the rest of a Model S is like this ? Apparently the shocks/suspension are[2]. [1] Optional. [2] http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2012-tesla-model-s-signature-performance-suspension-walkaround.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2012-tesla-mo...
- calinet6 14y ago
  It's worth nothing that the only reason they're able to add that feature is because they don't need space for a gas engine and the associated tanks and parts.
  - bch 14y ago
    I joke about this to myself, but my 1972 VW Type 3 (eg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1966_Volkswagen_1600_Squareback.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1966_Volkswagen_1600_Squar...) actually has a lot of similarities with the Tesla; 1) [X] no radiator 2) [X] grill-less front end (see also (1)) 3) [X] smooth underbody 4) [X] "frunk" (front trunk) 5) [X] storage in rear, in addition to frunk. I guess the point is, in some ways, we've been "living in the future" for a long time; it's just that we haven't been marketed-to enough to realize it. Tesla is interesting to me, and I'm not trying to diminish what they've accomplished, but at least some of the little things that "fell out" of the design that people seem to impressed by are 50 years old. It's just interesting, that's all. ====== Interesting fact: 1968 VW Type 3 is the first volume produced auto to ship electronic fuel injection. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_air-cooled_engine#Type_1:_1.1.E2.80.931.6_litres http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_air-cooled_engine#Ty...)

by pyre 14y ago

codex 14y ago

It's because Tesla makes an extra $7.5K from each car via the federal tax credit and an extra $70M each quarter selling ZEV credits. Without these they would not be profitable. So they have more money to apply to the fit and finish of the car than luxury manufacturers which don't make an electric. It's because Tesla makes an extra $7.5K from each car via the federal tax credit and an extra $70M each quarter selling ZEV credits. Without these they would not be profitable. So they have more money to apply to the fit and finish of the car than luxury manufacturers which don't make an electric. They also benefit from an enormous, low interest DOE loan. To date Tesla has lost more than billion dollars which has not been recouped; that's roughly -$50K per car sold in 2013 ($1B / 20K). In contrast, BMW only makes a profit of +$5K on each of their 1.5M cars sold yearly.

jfb 14y ago
But a luxury manufacturer like e.g. Audi gets to reuse engineering work from parent VW and sibling Lamborghini to improve their $100k car. Much of the comparative advantage of the Model S is due directly to the engineering differences of building an electric powertrain; they get to make different tradeoffs than BMW does in, say, an M5. The real nutcutting time will come when an established brand decides to build a high-end electric (the BMW i8, for instance), where they get to combine their much more significant economies of scale with the advantages of an electric drivetrain. EDIT: The i8 is a plug-in hybrid, actually, so it's really a worst of both worlds sort of deal. The point still stands as made, however.
- codex 14y ago
  I wonder how the marginal cost of an ICE compares with the marginal cost of one or two electric motors + regen + batteries + charger, and how those change over time. I suspect the electric drive train isn't cheaper now, but will be cheaper in a few years.
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    I suspect aside from the batteries, electric drive train is already cheaper. Modern ICE are ridiculously sophisticated and require advanced manufacturing capabilities.
jpeg_hero 14y ago
east coaster?
cma 14y ago
If the other manufacturers opened a plant in california, or bought an existing one like Tesla, wouldn't they also get the same ZEV credits which they could sell or use for themselves? > To date Tesla has lost more than billion dollars Are you including liquid assets, like the California plant, as losses? (not accusing you, I haven't looked at their numbers)
- codex 14y ago
  $1B is roughly the GAAP losses for TSLA since they went public. I think that in order to resell ZEV credits more than 13% of a manufacturer's cars must be electric, which is not true of any other luxury manufacturer.
  - cma 14y ago
    That doesn't add up with this: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tsla+earnings http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tsla+earnings But, that may not be GAAP. Where did you find that total?
    - mikeyouse 14y ago
      You can go to google finance: https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3ATSLA&fstype=ii&ei=IP2LUdCMAYjgiAKrCQ https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3ATSLA&fstype=ii... And then select 'Annual', 'Balance Sheet', and then look at the line item for "Retained Earnings (Accumulated Deficit)" Or alternatively, from TSLA's 2012 10-K: "We incurred a net loss of $396.2 million for the year ended December 31, 2012. In addition, we have accumulated net losses of $1,065.6 million from our inception through December 31, 2012. We have had net losses in each quarter since our inception." Source: Page 31 Here: http://ir.teslamotors.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-13-96241&CIK=1318605 http://ir.teslamotors.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-13-...
      - cma 14y ago
        Well then, that's because I was looking at "since going public", since that is what the guy I replied to said. But you and the original poster are right since you are talking about 'since inception'.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
sliverstorm 14y ago
Not to mention, I bet the electric drivetrain is much simpler than existing internal combustion engines. Modern gasoline engines are nothing less than engineering marvels; Tesla, on the other hand, probably gets to devote proportionally more money and effort to other aspects of the car.

rsync 14y ago

"You're only focusing on the "electric car" part. By all accounts, the rest of the car is an amazing package, even without the electric motor. I think the question is why was Tesla able to push the Model S so far ahead of the current industry in those other respects?" This cannot be overstated. I don't like a lot of the Tesla S design - both interior and exterior. Further, my use case(s) don't necessarily lend themselves perfectly to an electric car. But the Tesla has a third row with five-point child harness seats built fucking in[1]. This feature alone changes my life. The existing auto industry answer to carseats and children in general ranges from "makes me want to kill myself to insert/remove carseat" to "merely makes me want to kill others". How much of the rest of a Model S is like this ? Apparently the shocks/suspension are[2]. [1] Optional. [2] http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2012-tesla-model-s-signature-performance-suspension-walkaround.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/track-tests/2012-tesla-mo...

calinet6 14y ago
It's worth nothing that the only reason they're able to add that feature is because they don't need space for a gas engine and the associated tanks and parts.
- bch 14y ago
  I joke about this to myself, but my 1972 VW Type 3 (eg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1966_Volkswagen_1600_Squareback.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1966_Volkswagen_1600_Squar...) actually has a lot of similarities with the Tesla; 1) [X] no radiator 2) [X] grill-less front end (see also (1)) 3) [X] smooth underbody 4) [X] "frunk" (front trunk) 5) [X] storage in rear, in addition to frunk. I guess the point is, in some ways, we've been "living in the future" for a long time; it's just that we haven't been marketed-to enough to realize it. Tesla is interesting to me, and I'm not trying to diminish what they've accomplished, but at least some of the little things that "fell out" of the design that people seem to impressed by are 50 years old. It's just interesting, that's all. ====== Interesting fact: 1968 VW Type 3 is the first volume produced auto to ship electronic fuel injection. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_air-cooled_engine#Type_1:_1.1.E2.80.931.6_litres http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_air-cooled_engine#Ty...)