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I love how many people don't actually know this. Most of those same people also hate unions because they don't realize how many of their "rights" were earned an

I love how many people don't actually know this. Most of those same people also hate unions because they don't realize how many of their "rights" were earned and secured by them.

cmdkeen 13y ago
In just the same way plenty of people now don't know about what the unions then went on to create or enable. Spanish practices, crippling national strikes, the near inability to fire poorly performing staff, closed shops and intimidation of non union labour. Many of these rights were also secured because the awful production line jobs were sent overseas (cf Bangladesh). Unions were a powerful force for good - but they also created huge problems in some countries once those rights had been one and they failed to modernise. Modern trade unions are again a powerful force for good, but those are the ones that aren't going on strike all the time and hardly anyone has a problem with them. (From a very UK perspective)
- omd 13y ago
  Unions were created to counterbalance corporate power. To say we should get rid of unions because they're not perfect is just idiotic. Ever since unions have been all but crushed in the US, labor protection laws have disappeared, strikes have become mostly illegal, staff can be fired at will and union members are intimidated. Maybe the answer is to get rid of corporations?
  - sigmavirus24 13y ago
    Don't forget government power. One person alone can not effectively negotiate with a local, county or state government, let alone the federal government. On top of that, government salaries are often so significantly less than corporate salaries that government employees can't afford attorneys who know corporate and labor law. > Maybe the answer is to get rid of corporations? Hyperbole aside, there is no silver bullet to the situation as it stands. And I'm not informed enough to make any claims as to what could fix it. I just find it horribly hilarious when unions are made out to be so evil and corporations are made out to be the good in any fight. Unions at least have the interest (to a degree) of their members to protect, corporations just care about profit.
  - derleth 13y ago
    Unions defend workers against companies. Who defends workers against unions?
derleth 13y ago
> Most of those same people also hate unions because they don't realize how many of their "rights" were earned and secured by them. Were earned. Were secured. Continuing to harp on the past is not a convincing argument for current relevance.
- sigmavirus24 13y ago
  They're the only ones fighting to defend those rights. They're also the only reason highly political positions, like state and municipality workers, can not be fired when the new political powers take over and want to provide patronage. But I guess if you willfully deal with the government as an employer, that's your own fault, right?
  - derleth 13y ago
    I was talking about private sector unions.
    - sigmavirus24 13y ago
      Then specify that because otherwise you're attacking all unions. There are no perfect unions. There never have been but they still play an important part in the labor force.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
jalfresi 13y ago
But.. but.. disruption good! Some things have already been disrupted. The 40hr working week being a great example. I'm really beginning to wonder if our industry's fascination with young, gullible and naive staff is actually healthy any more.

I love how many people don't actually know this. Most of those same people also hate unions because they don't realize how many of their "rights" were earned and secured by them.

cmdkeen 13y ago

In just the same way plenty of people now don't know about what the unions then went on to create or enable. Spanish practices, crippling national strikes, the near inability to fire poorly performing staff, closed shops and intimidation of non union labour. Many of these rights were also secured because the awful production line jobs were sent overseas (cf Bangladesh). Unions were a powerful force for good - but they also created huge problems in some countries once those rights had been one and they failed to modernise. Modern trade unions are again a powerful force for good, but those are the ones that aren't going on strike all the time and hardly anyone has a problem with them. (From a very UK perspective)

omd 13y ago
Unions were created to counterbalance corporate power. To say we should get rid of unions because they're not perfect is just idiotic. Ever since unions have been all but crushed in the US, labor protection laws have disappeared, strikes have become mostly illegal, staff can be fired at will and union members are intimidated. Maybe the answer is to get rid of corporations?
- sigmavirus24 13y ago
  Don't forget government power. One person alone can not effectively negotiate with a local, county or state government, let alone the federal government. On top of that, government salaries are often so significantly less than corporate salaries that government employees can't afford attorneys who know corporate and labor law. > Maybe the answer is to get rid of corporations? Hyperbole aside, there is no silver bullet to the situation as it stands. And I'm not informed enough to make any claims as to what could fix it. I just find it horribly hilarious when unions are made out to be so evil and corporations are made out to be the good in any fight. Unions at least have the interest (to a degree) of their members to protect, corporations just care about profit.
- derleth 13y ago
  Unions defend workers against companies. Who defends workers against unions?

derleth 13y ago

> Most of those same people also hate unions because they don't realize how many of their "rights" were earned and secured by them. Were earned. Were secured. Continuing to harp on the past is not a convincing argument for current relevance.

sigmavirus24 13y ago
They're the only ones fighting to defend those rights. They're also the only reason highly political positions, like state and municipality workers, can not be fired when the new political powers take over and want to provide patronage. But I guess if you willfully deal with the government as an employer, that's your own fault, right?
- derleth 13y ago
  I was talking about private sector unions.
  - sigmavirus24 13y ago
    Then specify that because otherwise you're attacking all unions. There are no perfect unions. There never have been but they still play an important part in the labor force.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

jalfresi 13y ago

But.. but.. disruption good! Some things have already been disrupted. The 40hr working week being a great example. I'm really beginning to wonder if our industry's fascination with young, gullible and naive staff is actually healthy any more.