5 ms·

Woman did not evolve to find smart guys or "nice" guys attractive. Woman are programmed to find the leader of the pack attractive, even if said leader is an ah

Woman did not evolve to find smart guys or "nice" guys attractive. Woman are programmed to find the leader of the pack attractive, even if said leader is an ahole. Fortunately, most well raised woman were taught with their rational minds to be wary of the jerk and to go for the gentleman. So rationally they want the nice guy, but the animal mind wants the leader of the pack. This creates conflict. If you've ever been in a situation where you've had a close female friend tell you - "you're a nice guy, but I'm sorry, I'm just attracted to you. I really wish I was, but I'm not" - you know what I mean. The answer is not to become to an asshole, but you should cultivate an air of being more like a leader of the pack. Note you do not have to actually be a leader of a group of guys to do this. It's just about sending the right signals to the female's animal mind. Things you can do to give that impression are: be confident when approaching girls, do not be needy or give off signs of desperation, tease her, be interesting, give off a sense of bemused indifference, don't act like your trying too hard, do not be afraid to touch her on the arm or shoulder, flirt with her friends, etc. I learned this stuff through experience and friends, but there are sources on the internet that can greatly speed up the process. You can read the archives of Roissy's blog, but be warned, it's very not PC - http://roissy.wordpress.com/ http://roissy.wordpress.com/

alyx 18y ago
This Roissy character has some amazingly clever, witty and all around awesome posts!
banned_man 18y ago
You're blaming evolution for womens' generally execrable tastes in men, but the source of the problem is likely cultural and psychological. A large proportion of American women have been raised with an unspoken and often subliminal belief that sex is filthy, painful and degrading. This association is formed at a young age and most women are not aware that they have it, but it leads them to become attracted to men who are boorish, stupid, and threatening, rather than the intelligent and decent guys. Often, they are actually completely incapable of being sexually attracted to men who don't threaten and degrade them on, at the least, a subconscious level. This is what's at hand in the case of "you're a nice guy, but I'm sorry, I'm just attracted to you. I really wish I was, but I'm not". This doesn't describe the majority of women or relationships, but it does describe nearly all of the sexually "loud" women. It seems paradoxical, but promiscuous women almost always have this subconscious distaste for sex, while relatively chaste women often have only a trace of it.
- Eliezer 18y ago
  Oh? And why doesn't the same conditioning work on men when it's tried on men?
  - banned_man 18y ago
    I think there are a lot of men who have the same complex. There are a lot of men who are attracted to vapid and bitchy women-- the popular bubbly/slutty girl. They have a similar mindset: sex is an embarrassing, dissatisfying, and stupid activity in their worldview, and they seek out the sorts of women who are likely to confirm their nightmarish vision.
    - aswanson 18y ago
      sex is an embarrassing, dissatisfying, and stupid activity in their worldview, and they seek out the sorts of women who are likely to confirm their nightmarish vision. I don't think we need an HN poll on this to disconfirm. The mindset of most men chasing sex seems to be based on the fact that it feels very good. Period. No nightmares needed.
      - banned_man 18y ago
        For the loser men who chase bubbly/slutty girls, the most common sex act is being rejected. I wouldn't imagine that this feels good.
- bokonist 18y ago
  The generally chaste girls are the same way, they still go for the strong guy over the "nice" guy. Girls that have been taught all their life to go for the nice guy, still find themselves attracted to the bad boy. The evolutionary/genetic explanation seems to fit my observations the best. I actually think men get some blame for the "girls falling for aholes" problem. I think too many quality men listened to their mothers and school teachers, who said the key is to be a nice guy. The assholes never listened, and learned on the street to win girls via strength. Thus only the assholes act strong and get the girl, while the nerds lose out. The solution is that the good men need to grow a backbone. Then women will be able to find men who they are both attracted to and are good partners.
pbz 18y ago
I recommend you have a look at Geoffrey Miller's The Mating Mind. While I agree with what you said, I think you got the evolution part a bit wrong.Meaning that women are indeed programmed to like the smart guy. The problem is, they want both, smart and strong; and who can blame them :)
strlen 18y ago
I expected that link to be the general "girls love jerks, so act like one" pick-up artist BS, but quite to the contrary. The tip/story about going to house parties once in a relationship is particularly relevant (and something I wish I'd have read in my younger days!). That being said, lot of the time most of the guys who complain that they can't get a girlfriend because they're "a nice guy" are generally just inexperienced and going after women who are out of their league. If they lowered their expectations -- and actually made an effort to find out what they really are looking for (rather than drive themselves insane over women they saw as "perfect") -- they wouldn't have had that complaint.
- space_cowboy 18y ago
  Roissy is, well, Roissy. He's unique, intelligent, and not just another cookie-cutter PUA (Although, your view of PUA seems skewed to me. Acting like a jerk is only one of a dozen styles that are taught, and is almost always recommended to be performed in a playful manner). Roissy should come with a warning label, though. He is the dark side. A Nietzsche-an amoral creature. His front page is remarkably tame at the moment, for him.
gaius 18y ago
Woman are programmed to find the leader of the pack attractive, even if said leader is an ahole. That's the key point - alpha characteristics/interactions trump everything else. Girls like alpha assholes despite them being assholes, not the other way 'round.
- banned_man 18y ago
  This is completely wrong, because women who like alpha males have those preferences because they've been taught that sex is degrading, humiliating, and painful, and are therefore attracted to men who are likely to humiliate and damage them. Therefore, the attraction is because of these men being assholes.
  - metachris 18y ago
    i think that's a very vague theory...
    - banned_man 18y ago
      I disagree. 1. A number of people in the US find sex to be degrading and harmful, at least on a subconscious level, while most reasonable people would only apply those epithets to a small subset of sexual activity. 2. People who harbor unhealthy beliefs (such as those described in 1) have a tendency to behave in suboptimal ways according to those beliefs, often with results that confirm them. An example of this is the misogynist/misandrist; people who believe that all members of the opposite sex tend to repel quality partners and have a very limited range of experience, and those negative experiences reinforce their beliefs. 3. Men who fit into the stereotypical "alpha" category strive to humiliate and damage women; thus, sex with them is, in fact, harmful and degrading. 4. Ergo, according to (2), women brought up with the attitude described in (1) are likely to be sexually attracted to the sorts of men described in (3). I don't see anything vague here.
      - gaius 18y ago
        I don't think you even know what "alpha male" means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_male http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_male "In social animals, the alpha is the individual in the community whom the others follow. Where one male and one female fulfill this role, they are referred to as the alpha pair" Girls want to be part of an alpha pair, it's as simple as that. I think you are projecting your own warped ideas about sex ("humiliation") onto this. But hey, whatever floats your boat, we're all grownups here.
HSO 18y ago
This "leader of the pack" thing is overrated IMO. Being the leader of a bunch of boisterous pussymen doesn't make you attractive, quite the opposite. Depending on the environment, you may appear more attractive being the strong, silent type minding his own business.
- bokonist 18y ago
  I agree, my use of the term "leader of the pack" was imprecise. Women are attracted to a mix of strength, status, command, and dominance. If you are a leader of a low-status pack, or a pack that appears desperate and trying to hard, it's not going to help you very much.
  - pavel_lishin 18y ago
    "Alpha Male" would be a better term. It doesn't imply that you should be constantly trailed by a bunch of frat breauxs, but it does mean that you're capable of leadership.

alyx 18y ago

This Roissy character has some amazingly clever, witty and all around awesome posts!

banned_man 18y ago

You're blaming evolution for womens' generally execrable tastes in men, but the source of the problem is likely cultural and psychological. A large proportion of American women have been raised with an unspoken and often subliminal belief that sex is filthy, painful and degrading. This association is formed at a young age and most women are not aware that they have it, but it leads them to become attracted to men who are boorish, stupid, and threatening, rather than the intelligent and decent guys. Often, they are actually completely incapable of being sexually attracted to men who don't threaten and degrade them on, at the least, a subconscious level. This is what's at hand in the case of "you're a nice guy, but I'm sorry, I'm just attracted to you. I really wish I was, but I'm not". This doesn't describe the majority of women or relationships, but it does describe nearly all of the sexually "loud" women. It seems paradoxical, but promiscuous women almost always have this subconscious distaste for sex, while relatively chaste women often have only a trace of it.

Eliezer 18y ago
Oh? And why doesn't the same conditioning work on men when it's tried on men?
- banned_man 18y ago
  I think there are a lot of men who have the same complex. There are a lot of men who are attracted to vapid and bitchy women-- the popular bubbly/slutty girl. They have a similar mindset: sex is an embarrassing, dissatisfying, and stupid activity in their worldview, and they seek out the sorts of women who are likely to confirm their nightmarish vision.
  - aswanson 18y ago
    sex is an embarrassing, dissatisfying, and stupid activity in their worldview, and they seek out the sorts of women who are likely to confirm their nightmarish vision. I don't think we need an HN poll on this to disconfirm. The mindset of most men chasing sex seems to be based on the fact that it feels very good. Period. No nightmares needed.
    - banned_man 18y ago
      For the loser men who chase bubbly/slutty girls, the most common sex act is being rejected. I wouldn't imagine that this feels good.
bokonist 18y ago
The generally chaste girls are the same way, they still go for the strong guy over the "nice" guy. Girls that have been taught all their life to go for the nice guy, still find themselves attracted to the bad boy. The evolutionary/genetic explanation seems to fit my observations the best. I actually think men get some blame for the "girls falling for aholes" problem. I think too many quality men listened to their mothers and school teachers, who said the key is to be a nice guy. The assholes never listened, and learned on the street to win girls via strength. Thus only the assholes act strong and get the girl, while the nerds lose out. The solution is that the good men need to grow a backbone. Then women will be able to find men who they are both attracted to and are good partners.

pbz 18y ago

I recommend you have a look at Geoffrey Miller's The Mating Mind. While I agree with what you said, I think you got the evolution part a bit wrong.Meaning that women are indeed programmed to like the smart guy. The problem is, they want both, smart and strong; and who can blame them :)

strlen 18y ago

I expected that link to be the general "girls love jerks, so act like one" pick-up artist BS, but quite to the contrary. The tip/story about going to house parties once in a relationship is particularly relevant (and something I wish I'd have read in my younger days!). That being said, lot of the time most of the guys who complain that they can't get a girlfriend because they're "a nice guy" are generally just inexperienced and going after women who are out of their league. If they lowered their expectations -- and actually made an effort to find out what they really are looking for (rather than drive themselves insane over women they saw as "perfect") -- they wouldn't have had that complaint.

space_cowboy 18y ago
Roissy is, well, Roissy. He's unique, intelligent, and not just another cookie-cutter PUA (Although, your view of PUA seems skewed to me. Acting like a jerk is only one of a dozen styles that are taught, and is almost always recommended to be performed in a playful manner). Roissy should come with a warning label, though. He is the dark side. A Nietzsche-an amoral creature. His front page is remarkably tame at the moment, for him.

gaius 18y ago

Woman are programmed to find the leader of the pack attractive, even if said leader is an ahole. That's the key point - alpha characteristics/interactions trump everything else. Girls like alpha assholes despite them being assholes, not the other way 'round.

banned_man 18y ago
This is completely wrong, because women who like alpha males have those preferences because they've been taught that sex is degrading, humiliating, and painful, and are therefore attracted to men who are likely to humiliate and damage them. Therefore, the attraction is because of these men being assholes.
- metachris 18y ago
  i think that's a very vague theory...
  - banned_man 18y ago
    I disagree. 1. A number of people in the US find sex to be degrading and harmful, at least on a subconscious level, while most reasonable people would only apply those epithets to a small subset of sexual activity. 2. People who harbor unhealthy beliefs (such as those described in 1) have a tendency to behave in suboptimal ways according to those beliefs, often with results that confirm them. An example of this is the misogynist/misandrist; people who believe that all members of the opposite sex tend to repel quality partners and have a very limited range of experience, and those negative experiences reinforce their beliefs. 3. Men who fit into the stereotypical "alpha" category strive to humiliate and damage women; thus, sex with them is, in fact, harmful and degrading. 4. Ergo, according to (2), women brought up with the attitude described in (1) are likely to be sexually attracted to the sorts of men described in (3). I don't see anything vague here.
    - gaius 18y ago
      I don't think you even know what "alpha male" means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_male http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_male "In social animals, the alpha is the individual in the community whom the others follow. Where one male and one female fulfill this role, they are referred to as the alpha pair" Girls want to be part of an alpha pair, it's as simple as that. I think you are projecting your own warped ideas about sex ("humiliation") onto this. But hey, whatever floats your boat, we're all grownups here.

HSO 18y ago

This "leader of the pack" thing is overrated IMO. Being the leader of a bunch of boisterous pussymen doesn't make you attractive, quite the opposite. Depending on the environment, you may appear more attractive being the strong, silent type minding his own business.

bokonist 18y ago
I agree, my use of the term "leader of the pack" was imprecise. Women are attracted to a mix of strength, status, command, and dominance. If you are a leader of a low-status pack, or a pack that appears desperate and trying to hard, it's not going to help you very much.
- pavel_lishin 18y ago
  "Alpha Male" would be a better term. It doesn't imply that you should be constantly trailed by a bunch of frat breauxs, but it does mean that you're capable of leadership.