8 ms·

I sometimes ask mental health professionals what the converse of Oppositional Defiant Disorder is. At what point do we recognize a disorder in a child who is un

by neilk 13y ago

I sometimes ask mental health professionals what the converse of Oppositional Defiant Disorder is. At what point do we recognize a disorder in a child who is unnaturally compliant and obedient? No answer so far. I ask because I think I had this. When I was a young prodigy I had the mentality of a performing seal. It's true that some people have difficulty controlling themselves, and they do need help. But the lack of symmetry says a lot about how diseases are identified; it is about institutional convenience.

jlgreco 13y ago
I think that you are right in that there is probably a disorder in that particular case, but seeing the lack of symmetry in general to be an indication of a problem seems off. As far as I can tell we don't expect such a symmetry in the rest of medicine. I don't think there is an opposite of lung cancer.
- john_fushi 13y ago
  lung necrosis?
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Ha, fair enough.
- mikeash 13y ago
  I'd agree in general, but when it comes to biology, the health of an organism seems entirely rooted in moderation. Cancer is when your cells replicate too quickly and out of control. What's the opposite? When your cells don't replicate enough. Radiation sickness is what that looks like. Dehydration is a serious problem, but so is over-hydration. Insufficient oxygen will kill you, as will too much. Bacterial infection can be a serious problem, but eliminating all bacteria from the body will also kill it. Overactive immune systems are just as bad as underperforming ones. And on and on.
nostrademons 13y ago
"Low self-esteem", sometimes colloquially called "people pleasing" or "being a doormat". A good therapist will recognize this and encourage the child to develop more of their own interests and assert themselves more.
- jessriedel 13y ago
  Sure, sure. But would be ever prescribe prescription drugs for this? Everything you're describing is characterized as a personality trait, whereas the OP (who I hardly fully agree with) is claiming that anti-authoritarian sentiments are labeled a disease. Obviously, this makes a big difference in how these phenomena are treated.
  - jmillikin 13y ago
    > Sure, sure. But would be ever prescribe prescription > drugs for this? If there was a drug shown to improve self-esteem in children, it would likely become one of the most profitable drugs of all time. > Everything you're describing is characterized as a > personality trait, whereas the OP (who I hardly fully > agree with) is claiming that anti-authoritarian > sentiments are labeled a disease. ADHD and ODD aren't diseases, they are disorders. When it comes to psychology/psychiatry, "disorder" is basically a word that means "personality trait that negatively interferes with everyday life".
    - madaxe 13y ago
      > If there was a drug shown to improve self-esteem in children, it would likely become one of the most profitable drugs of all time. It's called alcohol. It's wildly profitable.
      - brandoncapecci 13y ago
        When's the last time you give your child alcohol?
        13y ago
ceejayoz 13y ago
> But the lack of symmetry says a lot about how diseases are identified; it is about institutional convenience. Is it? I'd chalk it up to the fact that a unnaturally compliant child doesn't tend to cause the parents to seek out treatment, whereas a child who's kicking holes in walls and attacking their siblings does.
- betterunix 13y ago
  What about a child who is not violent, but who would rather spend their time reading advanced math textbooks, hacking, or otherwise learning? What about a child who will stand up to their teachers and say, "This is worthless homework, so I spent my time learning next year's material instead?" The point of the article is that an awful lot of mental disorder diagnoses are being given to children who calmly reject certain authorities, or who demand that the legitimacy of an authority be demonstrated before they will submit to it. Psychiatrists are medicating people who question authority out of existence.
  - ceejayoz 13y ago
    Do you have any evidence that kids calmly saying "I'd rather learn useful things" are getting widely diagnosed as ODD? Anecdotally, that's exactly what I did in the late 1990s with my biology teacher. No diagnosis.
    - msandford 13y ago
      I don't think many of the kids that are ADD/ADHD/ODD are old enough to be aware enough of what's going on. The system is in no way tailored to them. Instead of those running the system reflecting on it's shortcomings and trying to remedy them, they instead suppose that it's the children who are the problem, not them. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.
notahacker 13y ago
http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/dependent-personality-disorder http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/dependent-personal... ? In fairness, any abnormality defined by evasion of confrontation and dramatic episodes will inevitably attract less attention than the reverse, irrespective of institutional environnment.
bethly 13y ago
They are classified as "dependent personality disorder" under the DSM IV, part of the anxiety group of Axis II disorders.
wissler 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
jorleif 13y ago
Since we there is no exact definition of what a mentally healthy human being is, in the same way that those specifications would be available for a machine for example, the definitions of mental problems have obviously been developed mostly in other ways. Conditions where a person causea problems for himself or his surroundings are then labeled as mental health problems. Naturally, the opposite conditions may be benign. The person may be overly obedient, or overly trusting (opposite of paranoia), irrationally peaceful (opposite of depression) and so on, and this may indeed be caused by the same mechanism that causes the opposite condition, but as it does not cause problems, it is not considered a disease.
throwaway1980 13y ago
Excessive obedience often means you had overly needy parents who couldn't tolerate you acting out. So, you take care of their needs by not causing problems. This probably isn't recognized in the DSM as a disorder, since on the surface it appears good for a structured, smoothly operating society, but one term that you will probably identify with if you search a little is "parentified child". There are quite a lot of books written about this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parentification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parentification
- neilk 13y ago
  Pretty much, yes.
cema 13y ago
At what point do we recognize a disorder in a child who is unnaturally compliant and obedient? No answer so far. I think this is a great question. And I am not surprised there is no answer.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
JacksonGariety 13y ago
> At what point do we recognize a disorder in a child who is unnaturally compliant and obedient? No answer so far. But if you give it a name people will start to recognize it and they will be harder to control! Nice idea though, in theory.
DanBC 13y ago
> At what point do we recognize a disorder in a child who is unnaturally compliant and obedient? Typically one of the important parts of diagnosis is "does it cause a problem for the patient?" > it is about institutional convenience. Misdiagnosis is a serious problem. But your comment is weird. Giving someone a diagnosis is not convenient. That person is now able to get medical treatment, maybe disability benefits, maybe time off work, etc. Once you diagnose someone you have a duty to try to provide treatment. It's far more convenient to say that people do not have a mental health problem and release them.

by neilk 13y ago

jlgreco 13y ago

I think that you are right in that there is probably a disorder in that particular case, but seeing the lack of symmetry in general to be an indication of a problem seems off. As far as I can tell we don't expect such a symmetry in the rest of medicine. I don't think there is an opposite of lung cancer.

john_fushi 13y ago
lung necrosis?
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Ha, fair enough.
mikeash 13y ago
I'd agree in general, but when it comes to biology, the health of an organism seems entirely rooted in moderation. Cancer is when your cells replicate too quickly and out of control. What's the opposite? When your cells don't replicate enough. Radiation sickness is what that looks like. Dehydration is a serious problem, but so is over-hydration. Insufficient oxygen will kill you, as will too much. Bacterial infection can be a serious problem, but eliminating all bacteria from the body will also kill it. Overactive immune systems are just as bad as underperforming ones. And on and on.

nostrademons 13y ago

"Low self-esteem", sometimes colloquially called "people pleasing" or "being a doormat". A good therapist will recognize this and encourage the child to develop more of their own interests and assert themselves more.

jessriedel 13y ago
Sure, sure. But would be ever prescribe prescription drugs for this? Everything you're describing is characterized as a personality trait, whereas the OP (who I hardly fully agree with) is claiming that anti-authoritarian sentiments are labeled a disease. Obviously, this makes a big difference in how these phenomena are treated.
- jmillikin 13y ago
  > Sure, sure. But would be ever prescribe prescription > drugs for this? If there was a drug shown to improve self-esteem in children, it would likely become one of the most profitable drugs of all time. > Everything you're describing is characterized as a > personality trait, whereas the OP (who I hardly fully > agree with) is claiming that anti-authoritarian > sentiments are labeled a disease. ADHD and ODD aren't diseases, they are disorders. When it comes to psychology/psychiatry, "disorder" is basically a word that means "personality trait that negatively interferes with everyday life".
  - madaxe 13y ago
    > If there was a drug shown to improve self-esteem in children, it would likely become one of the most profitable drugs of all time. It's called alcohol. It's wildly profitable.
    - brandoncapecci 13y ago
      When's the last time you give your child alcohol?
      - 13y ago

ceejayoz 13y ago

> But the lack of symmetry says a lot about how diseases are identified; it is about institutional convenience. Is it? I'd chalk it up to the fact that a unnaturally compliant child doesn't tend to cause the parents to seek out treatment, whereas a child who's kicking holes in walls and attacking their siblings does.

betterunix 13y ago
What about a child who is not violent, but who would rather spend their time reading advanced math textbooks, hacking, or otherwise learning? What about a child who will stand up to their teachers and say, "This is worthless homework, so I spent my time learning next year's material instead?" The point of the article is that an awful lot of mental disorder diagnoses are being given to children who calmly reject certain authorities, or who demand that the legitimacy of an authority be demonstrated before they will submit to it. Psychiatrists are medicating people who question authority out of existence.
- ceejayoz 13y ago
  Do you have any evidence that kids calmly saying "I'd rather learn useful things" are getting widely diagnosed as ODD? Anecdotally, that's exactly what I did in the late 1990s with my biology teacher. No diagnosis.
  - msandford 13y ago
    I don't think many of the kids that are ADD/ADHD/ODD are old enough to be aware enough of what's going on. The system is in no way tailored to them. Instead of those running the system reflecting on it's shortcomings and trying to remedy them, they instead suppose that it's the children who are the problem, not them. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

notahacker 13y ago

http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/dependent-personality-disorder http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/dependent-personal... ? In fairness, any abnormality defined by evasion of confrontation and dramatic episodes will inevitably attract less attention than the reverse, irrespective of institutional environnment.

bethly 13y ago

They are classified as "dependent personality disorder" under the DSM IV, part of the anxiety group of Axis II disorders.

wissler 13y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

jorleif 13y ago

Since we there is no exact definition of what a mentally healthy human being is, in the same way that those specifications would be available for a machine for example, the definitions of mental problems have obviously been developed mostly in other ways. Conditions where a person causea problems for himself or his surroundings are then labeled as mental health problems. Naturally, the opposite conditions may be benign. The person may be overly obedient, or overly trusting (opposite of paranoia), irrationally peaceful (opposite of depression) and so on, and this may indeed be caused by the same mechanism that causes the opposite condition, but as it does not cause problems, it is not considered a disease.

throwaway1980 13y ago

Excessive obedience often means you had overly needy parents who couldn't tolerate you acting out. So, you take care of their needs by not causing problems. This probably isn't recognized in the DSM as a disorder, since on the surface it appears good for a structured, smoothly operating society, but one term that you will probably identify with if you search a little is "parentified child". There are quite a lot of books written about this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parentification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parentification

neilk 13y ago
Pretty much, yes.

cema 13y ago

At what point do we recognize a disorder in a child who is unnaturally compliant and obedient? No answer so far. I think this is a great question. And I am not surprised there is no answer.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

JacksonGariety 13y ago

> At what point do we recognize a disorder in a child who is unnaturally compliant and obedient? No answer so far. But if you give it a name people will start to recognize it and they will be harder to control! Nice idea though, in theory.

DanBC 13y ago

> At what point do we recognize a disorder in a child who is unnaturally compliant and obedient? Typically one of the important parts of diagnosis is "does it cause a problem for the patient?" > it is about institutional convenience. Misdiagnosis is a serious problem. But your comment is weird. Giving someone a diagnosis is not convenient. That person is now able to get medical treatment, maybe disability benefits, maybe time off work, etc. Once you diagnose someone you have a duty to try to provide treatment. It's far more convenient to say that people do not have a mental health problem and release them.