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> We need to spy on the government as invasively as the government spies on us. We need to legalize that globally. The problem with this idea is that governmen

> We need to spy on the government as invasively as the government spies on us. We need to legalize that globally. The problem with this idea is that governments themselves would have to legalize "spying" on them, whatever that would mean after it's been legalized. > That way no leader will ever have any real power to do anything. That's a nice thought, and if you take it a bit further, you may end up thinking there should be no government at all.

mpyne 13y ago
> That's a nice thought, and if you take it a bit further, you may end up thinking there should be no government at all Which is good, because I also miss the days where the man with the biggest club had the power.
- itistoday2 13y ago
  > Which is good, because I also miss the days where the man with the biggest club had the power. Not sure if you've noticed, but those days haven't gone anywhere.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    I'm 5'7" and 145 lbs on a good day. The only reason for my success is that the schoolyard bully is not the guy making the rules. I'd likely be dead already (or in a gang against my will) in a place like Somalia.
    - itistoday2 13y ago
      Who has the biggest club? The government. Who has the power? The government. What happens if you question it? You get hit with a big club (figuratively or literally).
      - mpyne 13y ago
        Look at the Westboro Baptist Church supporters or all those Tea Party activists or all the Obama "birthers" or Trump or all of the millions of other people doing far more than just questioning the government, and then try to tell me again that these people are getting hit with big clubs (or either a figurative or literal sort). Then consider a place like Pakistan where politicians of nearly every political party are having their gatherings literally bombed by people with actual big clubs. You're playing with hyperbole here and it's not helping the argument. Edit: To be clear, the point is that something will have a "biggest club", and we want that something to be under the control of the population at-large and not under individuals. Having that "biggest club" under the tender care of "no one" is just a subset of the case of having it under individuals, after all the bleeding is done...
        itistoday2 13y ago
        There are plenty of instances where protests/gatherings in the United States were squashed brutally by police force, and people were either severely injured or killed. The WBC, the Tea Party, and the birthers aren't squashed by the club only because the government doesn't consider them a serious enough threat. Anyone who is considered a serious threat is brutally beaten, tortured, detained, etc. whether or not their actions were noble (i.e. PFC Manning), or likely cases of mistaken identity, false accusations (Guantanamo, etc.), or living in the wrong part of the world (Iraq, etc.). Of course, you also don't have to be considered a "real threat" either to feel the weight of the club. Simply act out of line with the law, regardless of whether the law is just or not, and you will feel it smashing down upon you. Just because we have fancy formal proceedings before we hit you in the head doesn't mean the club has somehow disappeared. Its impact is just delayed, that's all. Past uses of the club included having the wrong color of skin or being of the wrong nationality (blacks a few decades ago, Japanese during WW2). All of these happened during times when we supposedly lived in a "free, civil and open society". The big club is always there, just sometimes it doesn't care about you. Watch yourself. http://th05.deviantart.net/fs70/200H/f/2010/027/5/7/Obama__you_gonna_get_raped_by_AtheosEmanon.png http://th05.deviantart.net/fs70/200H/f/2010/027/5/7/Obama__y...
    - white_devil 13y ago
      But Somalia has a government. It's just not very effective at maintaining order, or interested in it. The point is that Somalia is just not a good argument for why life without governments would be bad, especially since it does have one.
      - mpyne 13y ago
        I'm not sure how saying that Somalia has a government and then immediately saying that their government is completely ineffective is at contrary to my point though.
- cobrausn 13y ago
  Well, right now, the government has the biggest club, and we gave it to him, or at least let him build it. Not sure if the alternatives are any better...
  - mpyne 13y ago
    I think that's what it comes down to Churchill's famous quote about forms of government. Make no mistake, unless you're the one at the top you will be governed by somebody. Once you come to that realization the rest is an optimization problem of how best to control the damage.

mpyne 13y ago

> That's a nice thought, and if you take it a bit further, you may end up thinking there should be no government at all Which is good, because I also miss the days where the man with the biggest club had the power.

itistoday2 13y ago
> Which is good, because I also miss the days where the man with the biggest club had the power. Not sure if you've noticed, but those days haven't gone anywhere.
- mpyne 13y ago
  I'm 5'7" and 145 lbs on a good day. The only reason for my success is that the schoolyard bully is not the guy making the rules. I'd likely be dead already (or in a gang against my will) in a place like Somalia.
  - itistoday2 13y ago
    Who has the biggest club? The government. Who has the power? The government. What happens if you question it? You get hit with a big club (figuratively or literally).
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Look at the Westboro Baptist Church supporters or all those Tea Party activists or all the Obama "birthers" or Trump or all of the millions of other people doing far more than just questioning the government, and then try to tell me again that these people are getting hit with big clubs (or either a figurative or literal sort). Then consider a place like Pakistan where politicians of nearly every political party are having their gatherings literally bombed by people with actual big clubs. You're playing with hyperbole here and it's not helping the argument. Edit: To be clear, the point is that something will have a "biggest club", and we want that something to be under the control of the population at-large and not under individuals. Having that "biggest club" under the tender care of "no one" is just a subset of the case of having it under individuals, after all the bleeding is done...
      - itistoday2 13y ago
        There are plenty of instances where protests/gatherings in the United States were squashed brutally by police force, and people were either severely injured or killed. The WBC, the Tea Party, and the birthers aren't squashed by the club only because the government doesn't consider them a serious enough threat. Anyone who is considered a serious threat is brutally beaten, tortured, detained, etc. whether or not their actions were noble (i.e. PFC Manning), or likely cases of mistaken identity, false accusations (Guantanamo, etc.), or living in the wrong part of the world (Iraq, etc.). Of course, you also don't have to be considered a "real threat" either to feel the weight of the club. Simply act out of line with the law, regardless of whether the law is just or not, and you will feel it smashing down upon you. Just because we have fancy formal proceedings before we hit you in the head doesn't mean the club has somehow disappeared. Its impact is just delayed, that's all. Past uses of the club included having the wrong color of skin or being of the wrong nationality (blacks a few decades ago, Japanese during WW2). All of these happened during times when we supposedly lived in a "free, civil and open society". The big club is always there, just sometimes it doesn't care about you. Watch yourself. http://th05.deviantart.net/fs70/200H/f/2010/027/5/7/Obama__you_gonna_get_raped_by_AtheosEmanon.png http://th05.deviantart.net/fs70/200H/f/2010/027/5/7/Obama__y...
  - white_devil 13y ago
    But Somalia has a government. It's just not very effective at maintaining order, or interested in it. The point is that Somalia is just not a good argument for why life without governments would be bad, especially since it does have one.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      I'm not sure how saying that Somalia has a government and then immediately saying that their government is completely ineffective is at contrary to my point though.
cobrausn 13y ago
Well, right now, the government has the biggest club, and we gave it to him, or at least let him build it. Not sure if the alternatives are any better...
- mpyne 13y ago
  I think that's what it comes down to Churchill's famous quote about forms of government. Make no mistake, unless you're the one at the top you will be governed by somebody. Once you come to that realization the rest is an optimization problem of how best to control the damage.