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What a self-righteous douchebag. I'm a fully "respectable" 10-to-5:30 sleeper and it doesn't make me morally superior to anyone else. It's a combination of biol

What a self-righteous douchebag. I'm a fully "respectable" 10-to-5:30 sleeper and it doesn't make me morally superior to anyone else. It's a combination of biology, age, and lifestyle circumstances, two of which I have no control over and one which I have little control over. No one likes waking up in the morning. That's not even true. That's a false-misery play: make people feel bad by presenting the view that everyone else is suffering, when it isn't true. Most people have no problem getting up at a traditionally socially acceptable time. A few people do, and a lot of it's biological. Just because someone has conjured up a “label” for the way your brain works doesn’t give you a free pass to break your word. I guess this guy hasn't worked a real job yet and learned that normal people don't get to choose what their meeting schedules are. I agree. If you fully voluntarily (being told you must by a boss doesn't count) agree to do something at 6:00 am, then you get the fuck up and do it no matter how tired you are. However, I don't think he understands that most people end up in meetings they didn't voluntarily agree to attend. The problem with the typical workplace is that it's built on promises that weren't made voluntarily, and many of which don't actually exist, but that's another rant. Boo-hoo, get off Reddit and go to bed earlier. Actually, there is an insight here. Morning or night person, most of us lose our good judgment at a certain level of tiredness and start staying up when there isn't a good reason to do so. This is a tough call, because sometimes it's useful to stay up until 3:00am but usually it's not. The problem with sleep deprivation is that you often don't know how tired/impaired you are. You might even feel the opposite, though your objective performance is terrible. Earning your life is supposed to be difficult. Posturing. Bullshit. We get it, you have a big dick. Congratulations.

DrewAllyn 14y ago
They agreed to attend meetings when they accepted the job offer. If you aren't capable of doing what is deemed necessary for your job (whether its actually necessary or not is a separate question) then maybe you are in the wrong job.
- sp332 14y ago
  Right, and you shouldn't feel guilty for choosing a job that suits you better.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  Did the job offer say "must attend morning meetings"? Some job offers specify work hours and most don't. If the person took a job offer knowing that there would be 7:00 meetings and then didn't show up, then I agree with you. Some job offers include hours so there are no surprises. Many trading firms start at 6:30, for example, and that's fine as long as both parties are clear about expectations ahead of time. If the offer letter or contract specifies hours (rather than some flimsy, shifting-sands "please your boss" social expectation) then people should not commit if they can't meet the professed needs, I agree. However, if we're talking about a typical job where hours are not specified before signing, then you are in the wrong and you should quit while you're behind.
  - RestlessMind 14y ago
    > Did the job offer say "must attend morning meetings"? Some job offers specify work hours and most don't. But there is implicit assumption in a job offer that meetings ought to be attended on time. Sometimes, meeting times are decided based on mutual convenience. Sometimes, they are dictated by your boss. Nothing wrong with that.
    - michaelochurch 14y ago
      People can claim "implicit assumptions" all they want. Most rapists believe in an "implicit assumption" that the woman wants to have sex with them. That doesn't make it true. I can't tell if you're trolling or serious, and I'm not sure I even want to know.
      - enraged_camel 14y ago
        Well, you are the one who likened corporate bosses to rapists, so I cannot tell if you are trolling either.
        michaelochurch 14y ago
        No, I didn't. I was pointing out the ridiculous nature of "implicit assumptions" arguments that can be taken to all sorts of extremes.
xradionut 14y ago
It's not really a rant about sleep habits. It's a rant about excuses and not meeting commitments.
- chc 14y ago
  I don't think so. It's a rant about people who don't want to do hard things. Go reread — the overall thrust is not "keep your promises," but rather "do hard things and don't complain about them." He says this pretty explicitly several times.
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    Sometimes people should complain when they have to do hard things. Alan: My arbitrary function equality checker is taking a goddamn long time to write. Barbara: That's because it's mathematically impossible. Alan: Oh, thanks. I guess I won't put that feature in, then.
- doktrin 14y ago
  Frankly, it reads like a venomous, unconstructive rant that cloaked itself in "personal responsibility" cheerleading.
goldfeld 14y ago
No one likes waking up in the morning. Not true at all. I may be completely backwards, but I LOVE waking up in the morning. The original article also seemed pretty sure that NOBODY likes to wake at 3am. Are you kidding me? Nothing makes me happier and sets a better mood for my day then when I voluntarily wake up at 3am, even if my day job starts 10am. Having said that, I might have the condition outlined in the original post. I'm a severe over-sleeper, and I'll always sleep more in the morning if allowed to. It seems contradictory, but it's a matter of determination and discipline clashing. I have the determination to wake up early and feel wonderful for it. When I wake up before 7am, if I have slept enough, I wake up excited and energized. If I sleep until 8am or later, I feel miserable, and it snowballs from there on; I get frustrated with myself for having lost my productive morning and oversleep even more. Often this enter a vicious cycle of sleeping late and waking up later, and it's hard to break out of it. And even when I get a good habit going, it takes just a couple parties to shred my following week's schedule to pieces. I'm still hitting my mid-twenties. Productivity or my social life?
RestlessMind 14y ago
> However, I don't think he understands that most people end up in meetings they didn't voluntarily agree to attend. So? A job is a contract between you and your employer. If you don't want to honor it, choose a different contract. If your boss wants you to come at a certain time, show up at that time or change the boss. Those who show up for meetings on time are morally superior to those who don't because they can't control their sleep.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  If your boss wants you to come at a certain time, show up at that time or change the boss. You realize that in most firms, that also means (even if it's a large company and there's no point in it being that way) changing companies, right? And also that it takes about a month to do that, and that you'll usually be fired if you get found out for looking? And also that people who change companies "too often" get the "job hopper" label and get raped by closed-minded idiots who never grew out of thinking the way you do, right? I am fucking sick of arguing about the real world with Internet "libertarians" who've not spent significant time in it. Go back to pretending to be a 16-year-old girl who's "soooo confused".
  - doktrin 14y ago
    > am fucking sick of arguing about the real world with Internet "libertarians" who've not spent significant time in it. I couldn't agree more with this statement. There's a certain blend of inexperience and privilege that pervades some discussions on HN, and it's unfortunate.
- chc 14y ago
  > If your boss wants you to come at a certain time, show up at that time or change the boss. No, there is no moral obligation to silently put up with any mistreatment your boss dreams up. You are always free to negotiate — the counteroffer may be "you are not worth this trouble and you're fired," but hey, that's business. It's not a divine judgment from on high. For example, my boss once asked me to come in an hour earlier than I had been. By the OP's thinking, I should have just said "Yessir!" Instead, I said, "That'll be massively inconvenient for me. What is it that's prompting this?" It turned out that she just had some extra work that needed doing by a certain time each day, so I came up with a more efficient way to get this work done that wouldn't require changing my schedule around. She ended up thanking me because I saved everyone time. TL;DR: I said no and came out looking better for it.
fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
Is there anything worse than a sanctimonious early-riser who thinks that work is more valuable because of the time of day that it occurred? And how much waste do we all incur because of these indignant shits who insist that everyone must awaken simultaneously, get in our cars simultaneously, choke the streets and freeways simultaneously, line up at Starbucks simultaneously, arrive at our jobs simultaneously, etc. etc. etc. I dare anyone to try and design a worse system. A few of the worst early-risers I've worked with were the first ones to leave work, often crowing about how if others arrived as early as they did, then they too could race out to join them on the freeway, or at the nearest Hooters.
- enraged_camel 14y ago
  There is a lot of value in having everyone in the office at the same hours. It ensures that communication occurs in a timely manner. I work at a software company as a Sales Engineer, and part of my job is to answer questions clients may have. There is nothing more annoying than having to respond to the client's question with "I'm sorry, I was going to ask one of our developers but it seems they have gone home for the day." Note that this sometimes happens at 3pm, because the developer decided to come in at 5.30am and left at 2.30pm. Also note that similar things happened when I was working in tech support, and critical issues had to remain unresolved until the next day because the developer wanted to leave early and catch the swell for that day's surfing session. Bottom line is that there are a lot of fields (especially customer-centric ones) where the turnaround time for inquiries has to be extremely low. There are two ways to do this: 1. Give everyone Blackberry's that they must answer at all times 2. Have everyone come in at the same time It's one or the other. Pick one.
  - doktrin 14y ago
    In my experience, customer facing professionals are often quite bad at gauging the actual importance of client concerns, and good at magnifying them. I certainly was. Scheduling adequate coverage is ultimately a concern for upper management. If they allowed "critical issues" to go unresolved on anything other than a rare occasion, the issues were probably not critical to begin with.
sprawl 14y ago
This. I, too, am a "morning person," but that doesn't mean I'm physically superior to anyone else. I agree with the sentiment of this comment above. If you have obligations, then be committed and fulfill them, especially if they're voluntary. But calling someone a "sissy" (which I feel is a derogatory, antiquated, and unnecessary term) just because it's difficult to wake up in the morning comes across as self-righteousness.
tks2103 14y ago
he said "No one likes waking up in the morning." do you think he suffers from delayed sleep-phase disorder?

DrewAllyn 14y ago

They agreed to attend meetings when they accepted the job offer. If you aren't capable of doing what is deemed necessary for your job (whether its actually necessary or not is a separate question) then maybe you are in the wrong job.

sp332 14y ago
Right, and you shouldn't feel guilty for choosing a job that suits you better.
michaelochurch 14y ago
Did the job offer say "must attend morning meetings"? Some job offers specify work hours and most don't. If the person took a job offer knowing that there would be 7:00 meetings and then didn't show up, then I agree with you. Some job offers include hours so there are no surprises. Many trading firms start at 6:30, for example, and that's fine as long as both parties are clear about expectations ahead of time. If the offer letter or contract specifies hours (rather than some flimsy, shifting-sands "please your boss" social expectation) then people should not commit if they can't meet the professed needs, I agree. However, if we're talking about a typical job where hours are not specified before signing, then you are in the wrong and you should quit while you're behind.
- RestlessMind 14y ago
  > Did the job offer say "must attend morning meetings"? Some job offers specify work hours and most don't. But there is implicit assumption in a job offer that meetings ought to be attended on time. Sometimes, meeting times are decided based on mutual convenience. Sometimes, they are dictated by your boss. Nothing wrong with that.
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    People can claim "implicit assumptions" all they want. Most rapists believe in an "implicit assumption" that the woman wants to have sex with them. That doesn't make it true. I can't tell if you're trolling or serious, and I'm not sure I even want to know.
    - enraged_camel 14y ago
      Well, you are the one who likened corporate bosses to rapists, so I cannot tell if you are trolling either.
      - michaelochurch 14y ago
        No, I didn't. I was pointing out the ridiculous nature of "implicit assumptions" arguments that can be taken to all sorts of extremes.

xradionut 14y ago

It's not really a rant about sleep habits. It's a rant about excuses and not meeting commitments.

chc 14y ago
I don't think so. It's a rant about people who don't want to do hard things. Go reread — the overall thrust is not "keep your promises," but rather "do hard things and don't complain about them." He says this pretty explicitly several times.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  Sometimes people should complain when they have to do hard things. Alan: My arbitrary function equality checker is taking a goddamn long time to write. Barbara: That's because it's mathematically impossible. Alan: Oh, thanks. I guess I won't put that feature in, then.
doktrin 14y ago
Frankly, it reads like a venomous, unconstructive rant that cloaked itself in "personal responsibility" cheerleading.

goldfeld 14y ago

No one likes waking up in the morning. Not true at all. I may be completely backwards, but I LOVE waking up in the morning. The original article also seemed pretty sure that NOBODY likes to wake at 3am. Are you kidding me? Nothing makes me happier and sets a better mood for my day then when I voluntarily wake up at 3am, even if my day job starts 10am. Having said that, I might have the condition outlined in the original post. I'm a severe over-sleeper, and I'll always sleep more in the morning if allowed to. It seems contradictory, but it's a matter of determination and discipline clashing. I have the determination to wake up early and feel wonderful for it. When I wake up before 7am, if I have slept enough, I wake up excited and energized. If I sleep until 8am or later, I feel miserable, and it snowballs from there on; I get frustrated with myself for having lost my productive morning and oversleep even more. Often this enter a vicious cycle of sleeping late and waking up later, and it's hard to break out of it. And even when I get a good habit going, it takes just a couple parties to shred my following week's schedule to pieces. I'm still hitting my mid-twenties. Productivity or my social life?

RestlessMind 14y ago

> However, I don't think he understands that most people end up in meetings they didn't voluntarily agree to attend. So? A job is a contract between you and your employer. If you don't want to honor it, choose a different contract. If your boss wants you to come at a certain time, show up at that time or change the boss. Those who show up for meetings on time are morally superior to those who don't because they can't control their sleep.

michaelochurch 14y ago
If your boss wants you to come at a certain time, show up at that time or change the boss. You realize that in most firms, that also means (even if it's a large company and there's no point in it being that way) changing companies, right? And also that it takes about a month to do that, and that you'll usually be fired if you get found out for looking? And also that people who change companies "too often" get the "job hopper" label and get raped by closed-minded idiots who never grew out of thinking the way you do, right? I am fucking sick of arguing about the real world with Internet "libertarians" who've not spent significant time in it. Go back to pretending to be a 16-year-old girl who's "soooo confused".
- doktrin 14y ago
  > am fucking sick of arguing about the real world with Internet "libertarians" who've not spent significant time in it. I couldn't agree more with this statement. There's a certain blend of inexperience and privilege that pervades some discussions on HN, and it's unfortunate.
chc 14y ago
> If your boss wants you to come at a certain time, show up at that time or change the boss. No, there is no moral obligation to silently put up with any mistreatment your boss dreams up. You are always free to negotiate — the counteroffer may be "you are not worth this trouble and you're fired," but hey, that's business. It's not a divine judgment from on high. For example, my boss once asked me to come in an hour earlier than I had been. By the OP's thinking, I should have just said "Yessir!" Instead, I said, "That'll be massively inconvenient for me. What is it that's prompting this?" It turned out that she just had some extra work that needed doing by a certain time each day, so I came up with a more efficient way to get this work done that wouldn't require changing my schedule around. She ended up thanking me because I saved everyone time. TL;DR: I said no and came out looking better for it.

fnordfnordfnord 14y ago

Is there anything worse than a sanctimonious early-riser who thinks that work is more valuable because of the time of day that it occurred? And how much waste do we all incur because of these indignant shits who insist that everyone must awaken simultaneously, get in our cars simultaneously, choke the streets and freeways simultaneously, line up at Starbucks simultaneously, arrive at our jobs simultaneously, etc. etc. etc. I dare anyone to try and design a worse system. A few of the worst early-risers I've worked with were the first ones to leave work, often crowing about how if others arrived as early as they did, then they too could race out to join them on the freeway, or at the nearest Hooters.

enraged_camel 14y ago
There is a lot of value in having everyone in the office at the same hours. It ensures that communication occurs in a timely manner. I work at a software company as a Sales Engineer, and part of my job is to answer questions clients may have. There is nothing more annoying than having to respond to the client's question with "I'm sorry, I was going to ask one of our developers but it seems they have gone home for the day." Note that this sometimes happens at 3pm, because the developer decided to come in at 5.30am and left at 2.30pm. Also note that similar things happened when I was working in tech support, and critical issues had to remain unresolved until the next day because the developer wanted to leave early and catch the swell for that day's surfing session. Bottom line is that there are a lot of fields (especially customer-centric ones) where the turnaround time for inquiries has to be extremely low. There are two ways to do this: 1. Give everyone Blackberry's that they must answer at all times 2. Have everyone come in at the same time It's one or the other. Pick one.
- doktrin 14y ago
  In my experience, customer facing professionals are often quite bad at gauging the actual importance of client concerns, and good at magnifying them. I certainly was. Scheduling adequate coverage is ultimately a concern for upper management. If they allowed "critical issues" to go unresolved on anything other than a rare occasion, the issues were probably not critical to begin with.

sprawl 14y ago

This. I, too, am a "morning person," but that doesn't mean I'm physically superior to anyone else. I agree with the sentiment of this comment above. If you have obligations, then be committed and fulfill them, especially if they're voluntary. But calling someone a "sissy" (which I feel is a derogatory, antiquated, and unnecessary term) just because it's difficult to wake up in the morning comes across as self-righteousness.

tks2103 14y ago

he said "No one likes waking up in the morning." do you think he suffers from delayed sleep-phase disorder?