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find myself waking up in the dead of night at 4am and being completely awake Search for recent threads on sleep referencing "first sleep". Seems the electric l

find myself waking up in the dead of night at 4am and being completely awake Search for recent threads on sleep referencing "first sleep". Seems the electric light has made us forget most sane humans through most of history would sleep at sunset, then wake a few hours later in a relaxed blissful state, then sleep again. Methinks what you experience (not uncommon) is natural behavior, subverted by not realizing you're supposed to go back to sleep after about an hour of some nocturnal activity.

stephengillie 14y ago
This sounds like 2-phase sleep caused by sleeping too early.
- ctdonath 14y ago
  Not sure I'd call it "too early" when it was the norm for most of human existence. Sleep at sunset, wake at dawn, enjoy some nocturnal activity mid night. Artificial lighting hasn't been around all that long, yet we have forgotten what natural lighting means for sleep cycles.
  - stephengillie 14y ago
    In Seattle, the amount of time the sun is in the sky varies from 8.5 hours to 16 hours across the year. Do you believe we really need 15 hours of sleep in the winter, but can get by on barely 8 in the summer? I don't think our sleep schedules need to vary THAT much for seasonal disaffectance.
    - nijk 14y ago
      Are you familiar with the extreme effect to which sunlight affects human (and other mammals) systems biology?
    - da_n 14y ago
      Gotta feel bad for those Inuit's as well, apparently they should just not sleep for several months of the year.
    - keypusher 14y ago
      Makes sense to me, this is what a lot of mammals do. When food is scarce in the winter, best thing to do is sleep and expend minimal energy. In summer when the day is long and there is good light to see by, be awake and productive.
    - derefr 14y ago
      > Do you believe we really need 15 hours of sleep in the winter, but can get by on barely 8 in the summer? Yes, inasmuch as we "need" sleep at all. There are many species that dramatically shift their sleeping patterns over the course of the year--such as never sleeping during months-long migrations--and come out with no "sleep debt" accrued at all. This lends to a conclusion that the brain really just requests a certain amount of sleep, and is unhappy if it doesn't get it--but it can request less sleep in the first place with no physiological effect.
      - stephengillie 14y ago
        How do you account for people dying when kept awake for too long?
        derefr 14y ago
        I didn't say we don't need sleep. I meant more that putting in some sort of effort that then requires sleep to compensate it is a decision our brain makes (or an adaptation it executes), more like putting debt on a credit card than putting fuel in a gas tank. Build up enough debt and you can go bankrupt (i.e. die), but never build up any debt at all and you'll be fine; you just won't have any of the things you could have that required that extra temporary liquidity/leverage to accomplish. We could probably figure out a drug that would put us into a state where we don't need to sleep, ever--the resulting state just might not be something very much resembling "sentient human consciousness." It might not allow for memory-formation or System 2 analysis, for example, thus making you go through life only relying on the sort of "thinking" you do while dreaming. Animals that don't sleep, or that sleep very little (e.g. horses, at two hours per day) are also likely "stuck" in this state by design. The real question is whether we could get anything productive done in this state, and that might be possible--it seems somewhat to resemble "flow."
- coolnow 14y ago
  Is this a thing? I've found myself falling asleep around 10PM (when i normally sleep around 3AM) and waking up about 4 hours later and staying awake for hours on end. I can eventually go back to sleep around 5AM but then i feel like shit for the rest of the day. Now i make a conscious effort to not sleep too early.

stephengillie 14y ago

This sounds like 2-phase sleep caused by sleeping too early.

ctdonath 14y ago
Not sure I'd call it "too early" when it was the norm for most of human existence. Sleep at sunset, wake at dawn, enjoy some nocturnal activity mid night. Artificial lighting hasn't been around all that long, yet we have forgotten what natural lighting means for sleep cycles.
- stephengillie 14y ago
  In Seattle, the amount of time the sun is in the sky varies from 8.5 hours to 16 hours across the year. Do you believe we really need 15 hours of sleep in the winter, but can get by on barely 8 in the summer? I don't think our sleep schedules need to vary THAT much for seasonal disaffectance.
  - nijk 14y ago
    Are you familiar with the extreme effect to which sunlight affects human (and other mammals) systems biology?
  - da_n 14y ago
    Gotta feel bad for those Inuit's as well, apparently they should just not sleep for several months of the year.
  - keypusher 14y ago
    Makes sense to me, this is what a lot of mammals do. When food is scarce in the winter, best thing to do is sleep and expend minimal energy. In summer when the day is long and there is good light to see by, be awake and productive.
  - derefr 14y ago
    > Do you believe we really need 15 hours of sleep in the winter, but can get by on barely 8 in the summer? Yes, inasmuch as we "need" sleep at all. There are many species that dramatically shift their sleeping patterns over the course of the year--such as never sleeping during months-long migrations--and come out with no "sleep debt" accrued at all. This lends to a conclusion that the brain really just requests a certain amount of sleep, and is unhappy if it doesn't get it--but it can request less sleep in the first place with no physiological effect.
    - stephengillie 14y ago
      How do you account for people dying when kept awake for too long?
      - derefr 14y ago
        I didn't say we don't need sleep. I meant more that putting in some sort of effort that then requires sleep to compensate it is a decision our brain makes (or an adaptation it executes), more like putting debt on a credit card than putting fuel in a gas tank. Build up enough debt and you can go bankrupt (i.e. die), but never build up any debt at all and you'll be fine; you just won't have any of the things you could have that required that extra temporary liquidity/leverage to accomplish. We could probably figure out a drug that would put us into a state where we don't need to sleep, ever--the resulting state just might not be something very much resembling "sentient human consciousness." It might not allow for memory-formation or System 2 analysis, for example, thus making you go through life only relying on the sort of "thinking" you do while dreaming. Animals that don't sleep, or that sleep very little (e.g. horses, at two hours per day) are also likely "stuck" in this state by design. The real question is whether we could get anything productive done in this state, and that might be possible--it seems somewhat to resemble "flow."
coolnow 14y ago
Is this a thing? I've found myself falling asleep around 10PM (when i normally sleep around 3AM) and waking up about 4 hours later and staying awake for hours on end. I can eventually go back to sleep around 5AM but then i feel like shit for the rest of the day. Now i make a conscious effort to not sleep too early.