10 ms·

You don’t have to feel guilty for oversleeping

157 points by kdivvela 13y ago

jamieb 13y ago
Melatonin works for me. Unless you have DSPS, I cannot tell you how amazing it is for the alarm to go off at 7:30, once, and to be able to get out of bed. It has changed my life. I take my girls to school. I check email before 8. At the weekends I can lie in till 10 and its a real lie in, not a normal weekday.
- pragone 13y ago
  +1. Exact same situation here - started taking melatonin on the advice of my doctor, and it completely changed my morning routine (so long as I actually take it and go to bed about 7-8 hours before I wake up - it's not magic, and doesn't let me go to bed at 1am and wake up at 5am, but does let me go to bed at 10pm and wake up at 5am).
voidlogic 13y ago
"Be the first to share this on Hacker News" I'm not sure how this is news worthy- I guess some people feel every entry in their diary of personal accomplishments must grace the pages of Hacker News. I'm glad the author overcame his disorder, but asking people to post it to HN... I also imagine this will be a great way for a lot more people than the 0.15 to 0.17% of the population that actually has Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder [1] to rationalize their lack of willpower. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Prevalence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Pr...
- benologist 13y ago
  It's not newsworthy it's just the latest piece of random bla bla written for HN to advertise a startup completely unrelated to the subject matter. AKA growth hacking.
  - stephengillie 13y ago
    Yea -- this is advertising for the 42floors brand. What they're saying doesn't have to have anything to do with their product or brand, merely seeing that they're saying stuff puts their brand back in front of our eyeballs.
    - voidlogic 13y ago
      It looks like people don't like this being pointed out. My comment went from +5 to -2...
      - stephengillie 13y ago
        Were the downvotes for building a strawman argument and using it troll?
        voidlogic 13y ago
        Seeing as I never disagreed with anything the author said I'd be interested to know what the strawman argument in question here is. I did note that I think: 1. The post seemed like marketing/self promotion for his brand using a personal issue as cover and draw attention to his businesses blog. If this was a personal blog I would have no issue. 2. Many people who do not suffer from the disorder are going to use it as justification for their behaviour. I don't see how those concerns are trolling.
- gte910h 13y ago
  Why should you use willpower to control sleep if working a different time slice is neutral or better for your job?
  - voidlogic 13y ago
    >>if working a different time slice is neutral or better for your job If that is compatible with your job, great! That is the simple and most logical solution, job permitting. I never said otherwise, so I'm pretty sure you are reading words I never said...
    - gte910h 13y ago
      I replied to the wrong person. Was aiming at CanSplice Sorry there!
- mrchucklepants 13y ago
  I agree. Too many people think that a "condition" frees them from all personal responsibility.
  - voidlogic 13y ago
    I agree, I do have sympathy for someone really suffering from a condition, but they must be open about it and make their life work. Maybe that means treatment or just a honest conversation with their employer or both. What really bothers me is: Sleepy Hacker: "I get shitfaced every night and go to bed at 2 AM. I can't seem to get up at 7:30 AM for work ever! I set like 5 alarms! I must have Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder." rolls eyes If you think you have Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder, get tested, get treatment, communicate.
    - quotefoundslash 13y ago
      > a honest conversation with their employer Sucker.
      - pjscott 13y ago
        Have you considered finding a better employer? They exist.
- CanSpice 13y ago
  > I also imagine this will be a great way for a lot more people than the 0.15 to 0.17% of the population that actually has Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder to rationalize their lack of willpower. Yep. Unless you've been professionally diagnosed, just pointing to a Wikipedia page and saying "I have that!" as an excuse for your behaviour is not the right thing to do. The same thing happened with Asperger Syndrome; it became the excuse du jour for dickish behaviour. "Oh, I'm not anti-social, I have Aspergers." No, actually, you're just a dick. Using "I have this-or-that disorder" as an excuse (unless you have been professionally diagnosed) is just that: an excuse. It also belittles those who actually do have the disorder, which could be an even worse side effect.
  - voidlogic 13y ago
    Well said.
  - nijk 13y ago
    What is the difference between a disorder and being a dick? What if I have Assholegers? Is that less acceptable than Autism? Why? (Aspergers is no longer a disorder, it got rolled into autism.)
    - ratherbefuddled 13y ago
      > What is the difference between a disorder and being a dick? Choice.
    - 6d0debc071 13y ago
      Autistic people aren't always particularly annoying. # Anyway, one's based on a deficit of ability and the other's based on a deficit of will. Oh, I'll grant that strictly speaking the dick can't really be anything else - free will doesn't exactly show up as a major correlate. But when you change the social pressure's in the dick's case you get different behaviours out at the other end - whereas when you change the social pressures in the autistic person's case they don't stop being autistic for all you can train some of them to fake it somewhat when they get older.
- zeidrich 13y ago
  Whether he misdiagnosed himself is kind of irrelevant. The case is: - He's had a chronic problem with sleep. - He was able to overcome his problem with sleep by realizing it was not so much a personal or moral fault, but a problem that was being approached the wrong way. - He related the story to a friend who felt that her inability to sleep was a character weakness, and upon realizing that maybe it was just that she had a difference and needed to approach that problem differently was a comfort to her. - He thought maybe that sharing the story with others would help them recognize that maybe their sleep problems weren't a bad character trait like laziness, but instead just an unsolved problem on how to properly let themselves fall asleep. I disagree with some of his diagnoses, and even question whether the processes he was using actually helped in the way he thought they did. However, I appreciate the premise that "laziness" is not the cause of oversleeping, and approaching it as a solvable problem rather than trying to bruteforce your way to wakefulness and feeling like a failure when it doesn't work is a better solution. What exactly is "willpower" and why would a lack of it need to be rationalized? "Morning people" don't need to exert a lot of mental effort to be wakeful in the morning. To insinuate that someone needs to "rationalize a lack of willpower" implies that willpower is some sort of moral resource that morally superior people have a higher quantity of. But all that's in there is hormones and neurons and flesh and blood. If they're not interacting properly, and you can organize yourself so they interact better, then it would be foolish not to.
  - voidlogic 13y ago
    >>Whether he misdiagnosed himself is kind of irrelevant I never claimed the author misdiagnosed himself or was lazy- >>What exactly is "willpower" and why would a lack of it need to be rationalized... To insinuate that someone needs to "rationalize a lack of willpower" implies that willpower is some sort of moral resource... Assuming the people in question do not suffer from a legitimate disorder: Willpower is the ability to make yourself do things you feel must be done when you don't feel like it. It is an extention of self-control and lack of it IS a moral deficiency. >> "Morning people" don't need to exert a lot of mental effort to be wakeful in the morning Now is getting up at the crack of 8:00 AM easier for some people than other? Yes it is. However we all face things that are harder for us than others in some area of our lives and become able to overcome that is important. >>If they're not interacting properly, and you can organize yourself so they interact better, then it would be foolish not to. I completely agree and did not say otherwise. >>But all that's in there is hormones and neurons and flesh and blood. A disorder is when a persons biology is so abnormal/dysfunctional they require treatment. If you have a sleep disorder I would give anyone a free pass in this department, but for anyone else I expect them to master their biology. The same way we must master our biological tenancies and 1. control our tempers 2. control our sex drives 3. control our desire to over eat 4. control our desire to be "efficient" and not exercise. Unless you have a disorder, sleep is no different.
adambard 13y ago
I started working at a small startup in January. With the team as small as it is, the working hours are very flexible -- if I make it into the office at 10:00, I'm usually the first one there. Since I had the luxury, I did something that I want to wholeheartedly recommend to anyone who can: I stopped using an alarm clock. I'm a "night owl". I tend to have trouble sleeping before midnight, and often stay up later than that. Unfortunately, for most of my life (from school, to university, to a 9-5 job at a "real" company) I've had to wake up earlier than I would otherwise, normally around 7:00 or 7:30. It was always a struggle, and I would usually hit snooze a few times before I actually managed to struggle out of bed. Even if I happened to go to bed early enough to get 8 hours' sleep, I'd have trouble getting up. It took me about a month at to sleep off my debt. Now I go to bed when I want, and wake up in the morning around 8:00 or 8:30, no alarm needed. I went from 3-4 cups of coffee per day to 1. I'm almost always in a good mood, even first thing in the morning. I used to be convinced that sleeping for 10 hours if I wasn't interrupted was just a fact of my existence; now I wake up after 7 and a half hours, all by myself. This is not an endorsement for setting your schedule to 10-6. It's an endorsement for not setting your schedule. If you treat yourself right, body will know when it's time to get some work done, no clock needed.
- jaf12duke 13y ago
  I have a slight tweak on this. I stopped using an audible alarm clock. I've used a light-only alarm clock for years now-- The real value is that the light rises slowly and your body eventually wakes up when it's ready.
  - adambard 13y ago
    The window in my bedroom approximately faces the rising sun, which certainly doesn't hurt the situation. I didn't make a point of that, but I'd definitely miss it.
- lobster_johnson 13y ago
  > It took me about a month at to sleep off my debt. I am pretty sure you didn't "sleep off your debt". Sleep debt is something you easily recover right away, just by sleeping until you wake naturally. What you did was to shift your circadian phase. The circadian phase is usually measured by the nadir point of the core body temperature rhythm [1] (apparently the better measurement is of the "endogenous melatonin rhythm", but it's easier to talk about core body temperature). Apparently you can force the nadir point forward, but it's relatively hard to move it backwards. You move it forward by delaying sleep, thus accumulating sleep debt that causes you to get up increasignly later. To move it backwards you have to curtail your sleep, thus accumulating sleep debt which needs to be paid at some point. About your solution: As a fellow night owl, if I just set my sleep cycle free, at it were, then my wakeup time quickly shifts to around 16-17:00, and I sleep 9-10 hours per night. So while your recipe works for you, it's not for everyone. [1] http://www.cmse.ch/pdf/colloque_14_octobre/6_approche%20troubles%20circadiens.pdf http://www.cmse.ch/pdf/colloque_14_octobre/6_approche%20trou...
kevingadd 13y ago
The annoying thing when it comes to this kind of sleep problem is that it never gets completely better. Over time I've come up with ways to ensure I actually get up early enough for important events and don't sleep through alarms - not even 'i hit the snooze button' problems but just alarms literally not waking me up - whether it's by making alarms louder, setting 6 alarms spaced out 15 minutes apart (yes, really), or going without sleep if I have to wake up too soon (in practice I found that getting 3-4 hours of sleep consistently is impossible; I always sleep through the alarms). Even with all that though, nothing really changed. If I go a week or so without setting alarms and just let my body wake up naturally after a night's sleep, I will naturally drift from waking up at say 6am to waking up at 11am. Sometimes I drift backwards, and find myself waking up in the dead of night at 4am and being completely awake. It's extremely valuable to be in a work environment where you can at least mitigate this by going in to work early some days and late others. I also find that forcing yourself to adhere to a sleep schedule that doesn't feel natural can result in more fatigue, and I wonder if other people have the same experience. I tried doing an 'early' schedule at work a few times, waking up at about 6am and heading in to work early, and always found that I was completely exhausted by 5pm. Moving my waking time forward a few hours almost always alleviated the problem. Maybe it's something you get used to only after doing it for months at a time?
- ctdonath 13y ago
  find myself waking up in the dead of night at 4am and being completely awake Search for recent threads on sleep referencing "first sleep". Seems the electric light has made us forget most sane humans through most of history would sleep at sunset, then wake a few hours later in a relaxed blissful state, then sleep again. Methinks what you experience (not uncommon) is natural behavior, subverted by not realizing you're supposed to go back to sleep after about an hour of some nocturnal activity.
  - stephengillie 13y ago
    This sounds like 2-phase sleep caused by sleeping too early.
akaru 13y ago
Many of you may use flux to help with this. I also built an app for late night work sessions that adjusts for warmer light while also reducing the monitor's brightness. For OS X. Here's a few promo codes if interested: http://tokn.co/0fgu5wvx http://tokn.co/0fgu5wvx http://tokn.co/k6r3ggcw http://tokn.co/k6r3ggcw http://tokn.co/qgqrsvy2 http://tokn.co/qgqrsvy2 http://tokn.co/4zmmdt89 http://tokn.co/4zmmdt89 http://tokn.co/3pdx3jtv http://tokn.co/3pdx3jtv
- freehunter 13y ago
  Note: they're all redeemed.
Udo 13y ago
People's sleep cycles are just different, even if it's not fashionable to acknowledge that. They differ with the person and they differ with the personal situation at the time. This notion that there is The One True Sleep Pattern and that everybody should adhere to it is not tenable in my opinion. It's a strategy that sells books on how to become "normal", nothing else. I'm a night person, I viscerally hate mornings, and when I can I "oversleep" until 10 or even 11 in the morning. I go to bed when I'm tired, I usually sleep well and wake up rested in the morning. Sometimes I get tired during the day and when I can I respond to that by napping for a little while. In the absence of outside disruption, this works fine. I feel great and productive. On average I sleep 7-8 hours total, sometimes more, sometimes less. It's still possible to do a standard 7-to-5 workday, but after a while of doing that I simply become less productive and I start hating my day. I've been told, directly and indirectly through "sleep experts" in the media, that my natural pattern is unhealthy and I must take steps to align myself with the same standardized day that is working so well for everybody else. Waking up feeling like you just got steamrolled, traffic jams, morning grumpiness, and being in the office before the boss arrives. Fuck that.
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  Yes. I am not productive whatsoever before 10am. I would rather work 10am-11am until late into the night (2am-3am). One sleep schedule for everyone? Never going to happen.
  - gagege 13y ago
    Totally. I'm the opposite though. My brain stops working after 9pm and all my best work happens from 4am - 8am.
- veb 13y ago
  I'm deaf, and I can't wake up to the traditional beepy noises that alarm clocks have, so I have this really awesome vibrating alarm clock that clips on to my pillow. I used to have such difficulty waking up, but this vibrating alarm clock annoyed me so much, I'd actually end up waking 5mins before to turn it off before it could vibrate... I did that all through high-school, and now I've gone from a night-owl to a morning person, by training myself to hate that alarm clock. The one in question: http://assistivetech.net/search/productDisplay.php?product_id=52288 http://assistivetech.net/search/productDisplay.php?product_i... I've had it for about 10 years I think. Changed the batteries twice. Love this thing to death. (this is not a plug by the way, the link above was whatever came up in Google)
hapless 13y ago
You don't have to feel guilty, but you still might get fired. Jason Freedman answers only to shareholders, not a boss, which is why he can decide whether he feels guilty or not.
- SurfScore 13y ago
  I disagree. Investors often have a much more personal relationship with the founder. They made a bet on YOU. Your boss may or may not even care about you or whether you work there. More importantly, you might not give a rats ass what your boss thinks of you. Just because he's "in charge" doesn't mean he doesn't have a large amount of accountability.
- _delirium 13y ago
  I don't read him as arguing you shouldn't do anything about it. He does end with "it is on you to decide to do something about it". What is another question, with the parameters depending on a lot of things, from personal preference (do you mind not seeing the sun?) to schedule constraints (job, children, etc.). I just read him as arguing that you should recognize it as a natural condition rather than a failure of willpower or laziness, and approach it accordingly. That could still mean looking for methods to modify it, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Management http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Ma...
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  Not sure where you work, but I negotiate my hours just the same as the rest of my compensation package. 8-9am start time? That'll be an extra $10K-20K/year. Same for dress code, etc.
  - nijk 13y ago
    If you will wake up 2 hours earlier and wreck your long term performance for $40-$80/day...
    - toomuchtodo 13y ago
squozzer 13y ago
I don't feel a damn bit guilty, especially when it comes to blowing off work.
mkoble11 13y ago
A couple of times a week, I wake up at 3 or 4a & can't go back to sleep for a couple of hours. Does anyone else run into this? What approaches did you take to counteract?
- kisielk 13y ago
  Happens to me from time to time. Usually I get up and do stuff. One of two things happens: I find I don't get tired and so I just get a really early start to my day, or else I get really sleepy again an hour or so later and just go back to bed.
- chrisro 13y ago
  Yep. I used to call it "waking insomnia" before I learned about segmented sleep. It's likely a remnant of our ancestor's approach to sleep, which was in two parts--first and second sleep. I'll wake 4-5 hours after first falling asleep with a period of 2-3 hours of wakefulness before I feel sleepy again. Unfortunately I'll begin to feel sleepy again within an hour or about the time I need to wake up for work. Sometimes I can catch an hour or two of sleep, but it's the hardest sleep to wake from and I feel like I'm dragging the rest of the day. I personally just tough the day out, though sometimes I take a sleep aid (usually one 25mg dose of Benadryl) before going to bed as a preventative. New York Times about First and Second Sleep: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/opinion/sunday/rethinking-sleep.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/opinion/sunday/rethinking-... Wikpedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep
dionidium 13y ago
The thing about morning people is you just can't trust them, because a part of them will always believe that night people are lazy; they just can't get over it, no matter how rationally you explain your situation. And you can't trust people like that, because they'll never understand the difference between something they just happen to like or believe and something that is universally Right, Good, and True. To them there's no difference. Every Dystopia was a morning person's idea, I guarantee it.
- cgh 13y ago
  I'm a morning person. I get up between 6-7 am, even on weekends, and I go to bed around 9:30 pm. The day just feels done for me by then. There is some truth to what you say. I do feel people who "can't" get up in the morning are slackers. But, those same people are full of energy and ready to party (or whatever) when I'm slinking off to bed, so they regard me as boring, lame and no fun. These are two solitudes, I'm afraid.
- 3pt14159 13y ago
  Heh, people look at me sideways for leaving at 430 when I'm in at 7. You might time people can't be trusted because we never know when you've gone home :). (Said in complete jest, of course)
  - supercoder 13y ago
    Of course the same can be said for morning people, we never know when you arrived !
- endlessvoid94 13y ago
  > they'll never understand the difference between something they just happen to like or believe and something that is universally Right, Good, and True. I guarantee you a "night" person came up with that.
  - dionidium 13y ago
    Well, now, that doesn't take much sleuthing. But I'm not sure I get your point.
MostAwesomeDude 13y ago
False. Guilt is not shame, because it is rooted in fact. The fact of the matter is that if I fail to feel guilty for oversleeping, I will eventually be fired. If I am fired, I will no longer be able to support myself. (You can see where this is going, logically.) So yes, I do have to feel guilty for oversleeping.
- aashay 13y ago
  Would you still get fired if you honored your commitments? What makes you think you'd be fired at all? Seems to me like your situation isn't applicable to everyone. I, for one, fit the OP's description to a tee, and I'm pretty sure there are a handful of people I work with who assume I'm lazy etc. In practice it doesn't end up mattering because I still ship and honor my commitments, and I haven't been fired. I only feel guilty for "oversleeping" if I promised to be somewhere in the morning and I break that promise. Otherwise it's not oversleeping, it's just sleeping.
  - MostAwesomeDude 13y ago
    Did you consider that one of my commitments might be "Come into the office on time and spend eight hours at work?"
beat 13y ago
Here's an ongoing frustration... I'm currently working on a startup while maintaining a day job, which means LOTS of hours. I'm often (usually) working until I go to bed. Now, I'm at my best productivity code-wise when I first start working in the morning (no, not a morning person). So I'd like to get up earlier and put in a couple of hours on the startup in the morning, before I have to go do the dayjob - give my best couple of hours to MY work rather than someone else's work. Working two hours from 6am-8am would be more productive for me than working two hours from 10pm-12am. But when I'm working late at night, it's really hard to let it go and tell myself to pick it up in the morning. Knowing logically that this is true isn't enough. Sigh.
readme 13y ago
I have this problem too. Are you sure we aren't lazy? I'm fairly sure if I busted my ass (by that I mean a constant work stream all the way through with absolute minimum interruption) 9-5 every day and then did a hard workout I wouldn't have my 'delayed sleep' problem. Easier said than done, though.
AngeloRabbit 13y ago
Honor your commitments, yet be true to yourself. Not all of us are 8 to 5 people, and the world would not quite work as well if we all were (Who is going to be monitoring your network while you're asleep?). My belief is: Be a person of your word; If you commit to being somewhere at a certain time, honor that commitment.
kashrr 13y ago
Don't you think people who are genetically pre-disposed to sleep less than avg hours have an advantage? I think it maybe one of single most important advantages you can have, both in life and work.
deltaqueue 13y ago
It seems as though this comments section is filled with self-proclaimed "night owls." I'm curious, have any of you read the linked articles about variables that influence people to remain awake later than they should and have these types of erratic sleep patterns / modified circadian rhythms (heavy computer use / blue light exposure)? And, have any of you tested your own reaction to curtailing these late-night activities while introducing natural sunlight stimulant in the morning? I'm not asking in a derogatory way; I'm genuinely curious since I experimented with this myself and found positive results. My guess is that most haven't, and that it's easier just to accept a "night owl" classification in lieu of hundreds of thousands of years of human dependence on the sun and fire for light. Based on my limited research it seems that those without significant mental illness sleep well with habit and controlled stimuli (including natural light). Has anyone, through any amount of reasonable testing, found this NOT to be true?
- jacalata 13y ago
  Not exhaustive testing, but as a child (before ever having a computer, and with very very limited television access) I would stay awake for hours in the dark, and be dragged out of bed in the morning well after the sun had come into my room.
- shubb 13y ago
  The past month I've been up at 6am, rather than ~9am. As an experiment rather than for any good reason. What you say about light and stimulation sounds convincing, but for me it was about habit. I was in the habit of ignoring my alarm. I was in the habit of getting up when I needed to, and no earlier. To start off with, I used an alarm app that wouldn't deactivate until my phone touched my credit card, left in the shower. 'Sleep as a Droid', Strong recommend.
- btilly 13y ago
  I have always been a night owl. With or without computers. Even when I spend time camping out doors. I like to stay up, I don't like waking up. Once as an experiment I began waking up an hour later every day. I went around the clock, felt great, couldn't stop my body from doing it again, had to work hard to avoid it happening a third time. If days had 25 hours, I'd be all set.
rajanikanthr 13y ago
My work used to start at 10 and it was hard to be there in the morning meeting by 10AM. I always used to be late.. people are getting changed in our team, so rules. I was asked to come by 9-9:15 and there is new meeting scheduled at 9:30 and I was being constantly mocked for being late. I came across this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=359041 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=359041 and seems this guy is similar to me, but a more severe problem. I am a consultant and not worried about getting a new job when fired and team looks for the work I have done unlike fulltime. But I hate the feeling of subtle mocking for being late by my lead in my current job :(
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
eldude 13y ago
3 years ago I could no longer fall asleep before 5am and it was severely affecting my ability to concentrate, which as a software engineer is a death knell. Like most, I internalize my problems, exacerbating my frustration, worsening sleep, and creating a negative feedback loop. Today, I sleep like a baby, and it's INCREDIBLY EASY to fix. Follow these steps, and you'll never have difficulty falling asleep again: 1. Melatonin [1] Melatonin is how your body knows when it's time to go to sleep. It's produced naturally, but with DSPD (Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder), by definition it occurs later than it should. Taking melatonin an hour before you go to sleep is like a hard reset. I can't overstate this enough. It doesn't matter how much blue light or caffeine you've taken (for the most part) during the day, or how stressed you are, if you take 9mg of melatonin, you'll fall asleep in an hour. Period. Eventually, with some of the below, you can achieve the same affect with 1mg, and once you establish a regular schedule you'll no longer require it at all. 2. Wake Light [2] A natural sun alarm clock. If you get enough sleep (easy once the melatonin ensures you fall asleep on time), waking up to one of these is a breeze (and a joy). 3. Avoid Blue Light Same thing as the article states, avoid it. Computers, iPhone, etc... 4. Cold shower [3] It drops your body temperature and moves your blood away from your prefrontal cortex to your core alleviating your mind from racing. 5. Earplugs [4,5] My dogs feat clitter clatter across our hard wood floors. My wife wakes up before me. Our house creeks. etc.... Occasionally I also use an eye cover, but it's less impactful. 6. Socks & t-shirt [6] They help regulate body temperature. 7. Obey Your Sleep Cycles [7] Our bodies have natural sleep cycles (90m for the first, ~110m for the 2-3rd). When my alarm clock goes off, and I still feel sleepy, I roll over with my eyes facing my wake light and effectively snooze until I feel awake. Eventually the combination of white light and the conclusion of my sleep cycle, leave me feeling awake and alert. 8. Sleep alarm In my experience, it's been more important for me to set an alarm at night (9:45) to start getting ready for bed, than to set one in the morning. Having a regular sleep schedule allows you to work with your body instead of against it. If you're having trouble sleeping, or you anticipate having trouble, take melatonin until your body starts to adapt to your new schedule and it's no longer necessary. 9. Relax 1 hour before your sleep alarm you should be doing something relaxing. It won't matter if when your sleep alarm goes off, you're running around busily doing things. I make sure I'm doing something relaxing like watching TV or reading a book in bed for at least an hour before my sleep alarm goes off. 10. iPhone Wakeup One thing that helps wake me up on those difficult mornings is to crank the brightness on my iPhone and sit and read a few articles. The white light naturally tells my body it's time to start the day, and eventually I don't mind waking up. Life is so much better now that I can count on fantastic sleep every night! [1] http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/tc/melatonin-overview http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/tc/melatonin-overview [2] http://www.amazon.com/Philips-Hf3470-Wake-up-Light-White/dp/B003XN4RIC/ http://www.amazon.com/Philips-Hf3470-Wake-up-Light-White/dp/... [3] https://www.google.com/search?q=cold+shower+before+sleeping https://www.google.com/search?q=cold+shower+before+sleeping [4] http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0068HC0X4/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0068HC0X4/ref=oh_details_o... [5] http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H7MMP2/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H7MMP2/ref=oh_details_o... [6] http://lifehacker.com/wear-socks-to-fall-asleep-easily-476550620 http://lifehacker.com/wear-socks-to-fall-asleep-easily-47655... [7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#cite_ref-17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#cite_ref-17
tudorconstantin 13y ago
I think this is just a matter of training and motivation. I am waking up each morning at 5:30am. I love the silence in the morning and the fact that i can do whatever i want, with no interruptions, at top concentration power. I could be at work at 7 am if i wanted to, but i am a programmer and most of my colleagues get there between 9 and 12, so 8am is just good.
sixQuarks 13y ago
I wasn't aware I had Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome until I read this. However, this was the main reason I became an entrepreneur. After suffering every morning during high school, I swore to myself that I would never use an alarm clock when I was an adult. I'm happy to say that I've achieved this goal, thanks to DSPS.
fractalsea 13y ago
So pleased I saw this. I overslept this morning and felt shit about it. Luckily the startup I work for doesn't care when I come in, but I know it will just mean it will be even later before I feel tired tonight. I've had identical problems for as long as I can remember. It's been so hard to track down the cause. I think it's partly stress/anxiety, but it also definitely correlates with being alone, on my computer, late at night. I installed f.lux but I haven't noticed any difference. I'll try some of these other suggestions and see if the combination makes any difference.
obviouslygreen 13y ago
"Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome." This is where you lost me. If you're arguing that it's normal, don't call it a freaking syndrome. Don't give it an ADHD-like name, don't make it a diagnosis. Say it's nature, say what you mean, stop with the excuses. You are making exactly the opposite of your case. No reasonable person will listen to the deluge of "treat your Shift Work Disorder with this pill" and "solve your Erectile Disfunction" with this pill and somehow hear "Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome" and not think "yeah... bullshit." If you want to alter people's idea of normal, don't frame your existence the way people frame diseases and disorders. You are not changing perspectives, you are reinforcing them, and you are making yourself look even more abnormal.
yoster 13y ago
Fuck I wish I had this problem. I have insomnia and I only get 3-4 hours of sleep a day.

157 points by kdivvela 13y ago

Melatonin works for me. Unless you have DSPS, I cannot tell you how amazing it is for the alarm to go off at 7:30, once, and to be able to get out of bed. It has changed my life. I take my girls to school. I check email before 8. At the weekends I can lie in till 10 and its a real lie in, not a normal weekday.

pragone 13y ago
+1. Exact same situation here - started taking melatonin on the advice of my doctor, and it completely changed my morning routine (so long as I actually take it and go to bed about 7-8 hours before I wake up - it's not magic, and doesn't let me go to bed at 1am and wake up at 5am, but does let me go to bed at 10pm and wake up at 5am).

voidlogic 13y ago

"Be the first to share this on Hacker News" I'm not sure how this is news worthy- I guess some people feel every entry in their diary of personal accomplishments must grace the pages of Hacker News. I'm glad the author overcame his disorder, but asking people to post it to HN... I also imagine this will be a great way for a lot more people than the 0.15 to 0.17% of the population that actually has Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder [1] to rationalize their lack of willpower. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Prevalence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Pr...

benologist 13y ago
It's not newsworthy it's just the latest piece of random bla bla written for HN to advertise a startup completely unrelated to the subject matter. AKA growth hacking.
- stephengillie 13y ago
  Yea -- this is advertising for the 42floors brand. What they're saying doesn't have to have anything to do with their product or brand, merely seeing that they're saying stuff puts their brand back in front of our eyeballs.
  - voidlogic 13y ago
    It looks like people don't like this being pointed out. My comment went from +5 to -2...
    - stephengillie 13y ago
      Were the downvotes for building a strawman argument and using it troll?
      - voidlogic 13y ago
        Seeing as I never disagreed with anything the author said I'd be interested to know what the strawman argument in question here is. I did note that I think: 1. The post seemed like marketing/self promotion for his brand using a personal issue as cover and draw attention to his businesses blog. If this was a personal blog I would have no issue. 2. Many people who do not suffer from the disorder are going to use it as justification for their behaviour. I don't see how those concerns are trolling.
gte910h 13y ago
Why should you use willpower to control sleep if working a different time slice is neutral or better for your job?
- voidlogic 13y ago
  >>if working a different time slice is neutral or better for your job If that is compatible with your job, great! That is the simple and most logical solution, job permitting. I never said otherwise, so I'm pretty sure you are reading words I never said...
  - gte910h 13y ago
    I replied to the wrong person. Was aiming at CanSplice Sorry there!
mrchucklepants 13y ago
I agree. Too many people think that a "condition" frees them from all personal responsibility.
- voidlogic 13y ago
  I agree, I do have sympathy for someone really suffering from a condition, but they must be open about it and make their life work. Maybe that means treatment or just a honest conversation with their employer or both. What really bothers me is: Sleepy Hacker: "I get shitfaced every night and go to bed at 2 AM. I can't seem to get up at 7:30 AM for work ever! I set like 5 alarms! I must have Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder." rolls eyes If you think you have Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder, get tested, get treatment, communicate.
  - quotefoundslash 13y ago
    > a honest conversation with their employer Sucker.
    - pjscott 13y ago
      Have you considered finding a better employer? They exist.
CanSpice 13y ago
> I also imagine this will be a great way for a lot more people than the 0.15 to 0.17% of the population that actually has Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder to rationalize their lack of willpower. Yep. Unless you've been professionally diagnosed, just pointing to a Wikipedia page and saying "I have that!" as an excuse for your behaviour is not the right thing to do. The same thing happened with Asperger Syndrome; it became the excuse du jour for dickish behaviour. "Oh, I'm not anti-social, I have Aspergers." No, actually, you're just a dick. Using "I have this-or-that disorder" as an excuse (unless you have been professionally diagnosed) is just that: an excuse. It also belittles those who actually do have the disorder, which could be an even worse side effect.
- voidlogic 13y ago
  Well said.
- nijk 13y ago
  What is the difference between a disorder and being a dick? What if I have Assholegers? Is that less acceptable than Autism? Why? (Aspergers is no longer a disorder, it got rolled into autism.)
  - ratherbefuddled 13y ago
    > What is the difference between a disorder and being a dick? Choice.
  - 6d0debc071 13y ago
    Autistic people aren't always particularly annoying. # Anyway, one's based on a deficit of ability and the other's based on a deficit of will. Oh, I'll grant that strictly speaking the dick can't really be anything else - free will doesn't exactly show up as a major correlate. But when you change the social pressure's in the dick's case you get different behaviours out at the other end - whereas when you change the social pressures in the autistic person's case they don't stop being autistic for all you can train some of them to fake it somewhat when they get older.
zeidrich 13y ago
Whether he misdiagnosed himself is kind of irrelevant. The case is: - He's had a chronic problem with sleep. - He was able to overcome his problem with sleep by realizing it was not so much a personal or moral fault, but a problem that was being approached the wrong way. - He related the story to a friend who felt that her inability to sleep was a character weakness, and upon realizing that maybe it was just that she had a difference and needed to approach that problem differently was a comfort to her. - He thought maybe that sharing the story with others would help them recognize that maybe their sleep problems weren't a bad character trait like laziness, but instead just an unsolved problem on how to properly let themselves fall asleep. I disagree with some of his diagnoses, and even question whether the processes he was using actually helped in the way he thought they did. However, I appreciate the premise that "laziness" is not the cause of oversleeping, and approaching it as a solvable problem rather than trying to bruteforce your way to wakefulness and feeling like a failure when it doesn't work is a better solution. What exactly is "willpower" and why would a lack of it need to be rationalized? "Morning people" don't need to exert a lot of mental effort to be wakeful in the morning. To insinuate that someone needs to "rationalize a lack of willpower" implies that willpower is some sort of moral resource that morally superior people have a higher quantity of. But all that's in there is hormones and neurons and flesh and blood. If they're not interacting properly, and you can organize yourself so they interact better, then it would be foolish not to.
- voidlogic 13y ago
  >>Whether he misdiagnosed himself is kind of irrelevant I never claimed the author misdiagnosed himself or was lazy- >>What exactly is "willpower" and why would a lack of it need to be rationalized... To insinuate that someone needs to "rationalize a lack of willpower" implies that willpower is some sort of moral resource... Assuming the people in question do not suffer from a legitimate disorder: Willpower is the ability to make yourself do things you feel must be done when you don't feel like it. It is an extention of self-control and lack of it IS a moral deficiency. >> "Morning people" don't need to exert a lot of mental effort to be wakeful in the morning Now is getting up at the crack of 8:00 AM easier for some people than other? Yes it is. However we all face things that are harder for us than others in some area of our lives and become able to overcome that is important. >>If they're not interacting properly, and you can organize yourself so they interact better, then it would be foolish not to. I completely agree and did not say otherwise. >>But all that's in there is hormones and neurons and flesh and blood. A disorder is when a persons biology is so abnormal/dysfunctional they require treatment. If you have a sleep disorder I would give anyone a free pass in this department, but for anyone else I expect them to master their biology. The same way we must master our biological tenancies and 1. control our tempers 2. control our sex drives 3. control our desire to over eat 4. control our desire to be "efficient" and not exercise. Unless you have a disorder, sleep is no different.

adambard 13y ago

I started working at a small startup in January. With the team as small as it is, the working hours are very flexible -- if I make it into the office at 10:00, I'm usually the first one there. Since I had the luxury, I did something that I want to wholeheartedly recommend to anyone who can: I stopped using an alarm clock. I'm a "night owl". I tend to have trouble sleeping before midnight, and often stay up later than that. Unfortunately, for most of my life (from school, to university, to a 9-5 job at a "real" company) I've had to wake up earlier than I would otherwise, normally around 7:00 or 7:30. It was always a struggle, and I would usually hit snooze a few times before I actually managed to struggle out of bed. Even if I happened to go to bed early enough to get 8 hours' sleep, I'd have trouble getting up. It took me about a month at to sleep off my debt. Now I go to bed when I want, and wake up in the morning around 8:00 or 8:30, no alarm needed. I went from 3-4 cups of coffee per day to 1. I'm almost always in a good mood, even first thing in the morning. I used to be convinced that sleeping for 10 hours if I wasn't interrupted was just a fact of my existence; now I wake up after 7 and a half hours, all by myself. This is not an endorsement for setting your schedule to 10-6. It's an endorsement for not setting your schedule. If you treat yourself right, body will know when it's time to get some work done, no clock needed.

jaf12duke 13y ago
I have a slight tweak on this. I stopped using an audible alarm clock. I've used a light-only alarm clock for years now-- The real value is that the light rises slowly and your body eventually wakes up when it's ready.
- adambard 13y ago
  The window in my bedroom approximately faces the rising sun, which certainly doesn't hurt the situation. I didn't make a point of that, but I'd definitely miss it.
lobster_johnson 13y ago
> It took me about a month at to sleep off my debt. I am pretty sure you didn't "sleep off your debt". Sleep debt is something you easily recover right away, just by sleeping until you wake naturally. What you did was to shift your circadian phase. The circadian phase is usually measured by the nadir point of the core body temperature rhythm [1] (apparently the better measurement is of the "endogenous melatonin rhythm", but it's easier to talk about core body temperature). Apparently you can force the nadir point forward, but it's relatively hard to move it backwards. You move it forward by delaying sleep, thus accumulating sleep debt that causes you to get up increasignly later. To move it backwards you have to curtail your sleep, thus accumulating sleep debt which needs to be paid at some point. About your solution: As a fellow night owl, if I just set my sleep cycle free, at it were, then my wakeup time quickly shifts to around 16-17:00, and I sleep 9-10 hours per night. So while your recipe works for you, it's not for everyone. [1] http://www.cmse.ch/pdf/colloque_14_octobre/6_approche%20troubles%20circadiens.pdf http://www.cmse.ch/pdf/colloque_14_octobre/6_approche%20trou...

kevingadd 13y ago

The annoying thing when it comes to this kind of sleep problem is that it never gets completely better. Over time I've come up with ways to ensure I actually get up early enough for important events and don't sleep through alarms - not even 'i hit the snooze button' problems but just alarms literally not waking me up - whether it's by making alarms louder, setting 6 alarms spaced out 15 minutes apart (yes, really), or going without sleep if I have to wake up too soon (in practice I found that getting 3-4 hours of sleep consistently is impossible; I always sleep through the alarms). Even with all that though, nothing really changed. If I go a week or so without setting alarms and just let my body wake up naturally after a night's sleep, I will naturally drift from waking up at say 6am to waking up at 11am. Sometimes I drift backwards, and find myself waking up in the dead of night at 4am and being completely awake. It's extremely valuable to be in a work environment where you can at least mitigate this by going in to work early some days and late others. I also find that forcing yourself to adhere to a sleep schedule that doesn't feel natural can result in more fatigue, and I wonder if other people have the same experience. I tried doing an 'early' schedule at work a few times, waking up at about 6am and heading in to work early, and always found that I was completely exhausted by 5pm. Moving my waking time forward a few hours almost always alleviated the problem. Maybe it's something you get used to only after doing it for months at a time?

ctdonath 13y ago
find myself waking up in the dead of night at 4am and being completely awake Search for recent threads on sleep referencing "first sleep". Seems the electric light has made us forget most sane humans through most of history would sleep at sunset, then wake a few hours later in a relaxed blissful state, then sleep again. Methinks what you experience (not uncommon) is natural behavior, subverted by not realizing you're supposed to go back to sleep after about an hour of some nocturnal activity.
- stephengillie 13y ago
  This sounds like 2-phase sleep caused by sleeping too early.

akaru 13y ago

Many of you may use flux to help with this. I also built an app for late night work sessions that adjusts for warmer light while also reducing the monitor's brightness. For OS X. Here's a few promo codes if interested: http://tokn.co/0fgu5wvx http://tokn.co/0fgu5wvx http://tokn.co/k6r3ggcw http://tokn.co/k6r3ggcw http://tokn.co/qgqrsvy2 http://tokn.co/qgqrsvy2 http://tokn.co/4zmmdt89 http://tokn.co/4zmmdt89 http://tokn.co/3pdx3jtv http://tokn.co/3pdx3jtv

freehunter 13y ago
Note: they're all redeemed.

Udo 13y ago

People's sleep cycles are just different, even if it's not fashionable to acknowledge that. They differ with the person and they differ with the personal situation at the time. This notion that there is The One True Sleep Pattern and that everybody should adhere to it is not tenable in my opinion. It's a strategy that sells books on how to become "normal", nothing else. I'm a night person, I viscerally hate mornings, and when I can I "oversleep" until 10 or even 11 in the morning. I go to bed when I'm tired, I usually sleep well and wake up rested in the morning. Sometimes I get tired during the day and when I can I respond to that by napping for a little while. In the absence of outside disruption, this works fine. I feel great and productive. On average I sleep 7-8 hours total, sometimes more, sometimes less. It's still possible to do a standard 7-to-5 workday, but after a while of doing that I simply become less productive and I start hating my day. I've been told, directly and indirectly through "sleep experts" in the media, that my natural pattern is unhealthy and I must take steps to align myself with the same standardized day that is working so well for everybody else. Waking up feeling like you just got steamrolled, traffic jams, morning grumpiness, and being in the office before the boss arrives. Fuck that.

toomuchtodo 13y ago
Yes. I am not productive whatsoever before 10am. I would rather work 10am-11am until late into the night (2am-3am). One sleep schedule for everyone? Never going to happen.
- gagege 13y ago
  Totally. I'm the opposite though. My brain stops working after 9pm and all my best work happens from 4am - 8am.
veb 13y ago
I'm deaf, and I can't wake up to the traditional beepy noises that alarm clocks have, so I have this really awesome vibrating alarm clock that clips on to my pillow. I used to have such difficulty waking up, but this vibrating alarm clock annoyed me so much, I'd actually end up waking 5mins before to turn it off before it could vibrate... I did that all through high-school, and now I've gone from a night-owl to a morning person, by training myself to hate that alarm clock. The one in question: http://assistivetech.net/search/productDisplay.php?product_id=52288 http://assistivetech.net/search/productDisplay.php?product_i... I've had it for about 10 years I think. Changed the batteries twice. Love this thing to death. (this is not a plug by the way, the link above was whatever came up in Google)

hapless 13y ago

You don't have to feel guilty, but you still might get fired. Jason Freedman answers only to shareholders, not a boss, which is why he can decide whether he feels guilty or not.

SurfScore 13y ago
I disagree. Investors often have a much more personal relationship with the founder. They made a bet on YOU. Your boss may or may not even care about you or whether you work there. More importantly, you might not give a rats ass what your boss thinks of you. Just because he's "in charge" doesn't mean he doesn't have a large amount of accountability.
_delirium 13y ago
I don't read him as arguing you shouldn't do anything about it. He does end with "it is on you to decide to do something about it". What is another question, with the parameters depending on a lot of things, from personal preference (do you mind not seeing the sun?) to schedule constraints (job, children, etc.). I just read him as arguing that you should recognize it as a natural condition rather than a failure of willpower or laziness, and approach it accordingly. That could still mean looking for methods to modify it, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Management http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Ma...
toomuchtodo 13y ago
Not sure where you work, but I negotiate my hours just the same as the rest of my compensation package. 8-9am start time? That'll be an extra $10K-20K/year. Same for dress code, etc.
- nijk 13y ago
  If you will wake up 2 hours earlier and wreck your long term performance for $40-$80/day...
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago

squozzer 13y ago

I don't feel a damn bit guilty, especially when it comes to blowing off work.

mkoble11 13y ago

A couple of times a week, I wake up at 3 or 4a & can't go back to sleep for a couple of hours. Does anyone else run into this? What approaches did you take to counteract?

kisielk 13y ago
Happens to me from time to time. Usually I get up and do stuff. One of two things happens: I find I don't get tired and so I just get a really early start to my day, or else I get really sleepy again an hour or so later and just go back to bed.
chrisro 13y ago
Yep. I used to call it "waking insomnia" before I learned about segmented sleep. It's likely a remnant of our ancestor's approach to sleep, which was in two parts--first and second sleep. I'll wake 4-5 hours after first falling asleep with a period of 2-3 hours of wakefulness before I feel sleepy again. Unfortunately I'll begin to feel sleepy again within an hour or about the time I need to wake up for work. Sometimes I can catch an hour or two of sleep, but it's the hardest sleep to wake from and I feel like I'm dragging the rest of the day. I personally just tough the day out, though sometimes I take a sleep aid (usually one 25mg dose of Benadryl) before going to bed as a preventative. New York Times about First and Second Sleep: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/opinion/sunday/rethinking-sleep.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/opinion/sunday/rethinking-... Wikpedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

dionidium 13y ago

The thing about morning people is you just can't trust them, because a part of them will always believe that night people are lazy; they just can't get over it, no matter how rationally you explain your situation. And you can't trust people like that, because they'll never understand the difference between something they just happen to like or believe and something that is universally Right, Good, and True. To them there's no difference. Every Dystopia was a morning person's idea, I guarantee it.

cgh 13y ago
I'm a morning person. I get up between 6-7 am, even on weekends, and I go to bed around 9:30 pm. The day just feels done for me by then. There is some truth to what you say. I do feel people who "can't" get up in the morning are slackers. But, those same people are full of energy and ready to party (or whatever) when I'm slinking off to bed, so they regard me as boring, lame and no fun. These are two solitudes, I'm afraid.
3pt14159 13y ago
Heh, people look at me sideways for leaving at 430 when I'm in at 7. You might time people can't be trusted because we never know when you've gone home :). (Said in complete jest, of course)
- supercoder 13y ago
  Of course the same can be said for morning people, we never know when you arrived !
endlessvoid94 13y ago
> they'll never understand the difference between something they just happen to like or believe and something that is universally Right, Good, and True. I guarantee you a "night" person came up with that.
- dionidium 13y ago
  Well, now, that doesn't take much sleuthing. But I'm not sure I get your point.

MostAwesomeDude 13y ago

False. Guilt is not shame, because it is rooted in fact. The fact of the matter is that if I fail to feel guilty for oversleeping, I will eventually be fired. If I am fired, I will no longer be able to support myself. (You can see where this is going, logically.) So yes, I do have to feel guilty for oversleeping.

aashay 13y ago
Would you still get fired if you honored your commitments? What makes you think you'd be fired at all? Seems to me like your situation isn't applicable to everyone. I, for one, fit the OP's description to a tee, and I'm pretty sure there are a handful of people I work with who assume I'm lazy etc. In practice it doesn't end up mattering because I still ship and honor my commitments, and I haven't been fired. I only feel guilty for "oversleeping" if I promised to be somewhere in the morning and I break that promise. Otherwise it's not oversleeping, it's just sleeping.
- MostAwesomeDude 13y ago
  Did you consider that one of my commitments might be "Come into the office on time and spend eight hours at work?"

beat 13y ago

Here's an ongoing frustration... I'm currently working on a startup while maintaining a day job, which means LOTS of hours. I'm often (usually) working until I go to bed. Now, I'm at my best productivity code-wise when I first start working in the morning (no, not a morning person). So I'd like to get up earlier and put in a couple of hours on the startup in the morning, before I have to go do the dayjob - give my best couple of hours to MY work rather than someone else's work. Working two hours from 6am-8am would be more productive for me than working two hours from 10pm-12am. But when I'm working late at night, it's really hard to let it go and tell myself to pick it up in the morning. Knowing logically that this is true isn't enough. Sigh.

readme 13y ago

I have this problem too. Are you sure we aren't lazy? I'm fairly sure if I busted my ass (by that I mean a constant work stream all the way through with absolute minimum interruption) 9-5 every day and then did a hard workout I wouldn't have my 'delayed sleep' problem. Easier said than done, though.

AngeloRabbit 13y ago

Honor your commitments, yet be true to yourself. Not all of us are 8 to 5 people, and the world would not quite work as well if we all were (Who is going to be monitoring your network while you're asleep?). My belief is: Be a person of your word; If you commit to being somewhere at a certain time, honor that commitment.

kashrr 13y ago

Don't you think people who are genetically pre-disposed to sleep less than avg hours have an advantage? I think it maybe one of single most important advantages you can have, both in life and work.

deltaqueue 13y ago

It seems as though this comments section is filled with self-proclaimed "night owls." I'm curious, have any of you read the linked articles about variables that influence people to remain awake later than they should and have these types of erratic sleep patterns / modified circadian rhythms (heavy computer use / blue light exposure)? And, have any of you tested your own reaction to curtailing these late-night activities while introducing natural sunlight stimulant in the morning? I'm not asking in a derogatory way; I'm genuinely curious since I experimented with this myself and found positive results. My guess is that most haven't, and that it's easier just to accept a "night owl" classification in lieu of hundreds of thousands of years of human dependence on the sun and fire for light. Based on my limited research it seems that those without significant mental illness sleep well with habit and controlled stimuli (including natural light). Has anyone, through any amount of reasonable testing, found this NOT to be true?

jacalata 13y ago
Not exhaustive testing, but as a child (before ever having a computer, and with very very limited television access) I would stay awake for hours in the dark, and be dragged out of bed in the morning well after the sun had come into my room.
shubb 13y ago
The past month I've been up at 6am, rather than ~9am. As an experiment rather than for any good reason. What you say about light and stimulation sounds convincing, but for me it was about habit. I was in the habit of ignoring my alarm. I was in the habit of getting up when I needed to, and no earlier. To start off with, I used an alarm app that wouldn't deactivate until my phone touched my credit card, left in the shower. 'Sleep as a Droid', Strong recommend.
btilly 13y ago
I have always been a night owl. With or without computers. Even when I spend time camping out doors. I like to stay up, I don't like waking up. Once as an experiment I began waking up an hour later every day. I went around the clock, felt great, couldn't stop my body from doing it again, had to work hard to avoid it happening a third time. If days had 25 hours, I'd be all set.

rajanikanthr 13y ago

My work used to start at 10 and it was hard to be there in the morning meeting by 10AM. I always used to be late.. people are getting changed in our team, so rules. I was asked to come by 9-9:15 and there is new meeting scheduled at 9:30 and I was being constantly mocked for being late. I came across this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=359041 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=359041 and seems this guy is similar to me, but a more severe problem. I am a consultant and not worried about getting a new job when fired and team looks for the work I have done unlike fulltime. But I hate the feeling of subtle mocking for being late by my lead in my current job :(

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

eldude 13y ago

3 years ago I could no longer fall asleep before 5am and it was severely affecting my ability to concentrate, which as a software engineer is a death knell. Like most, I internalize my problems, exacerbating my frustration, worsening sleep, and creating a negative feedback loop. Today, I sleep like a baby, and it's INCREDIBLY EASY to fix. Follow these steps, and you'll never have difficulty falling asleep again: 1. Melatonin [1] Melatonin is how your body knows when it's time to go to sleep. It's produced naturally, but with DSPD (Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder), by definition it occurs later than it should. Taking melatonin an hour before you go to sleep is like a hard reset. I can't overstate this enough. It doesn't matter how much blue light or caffeine you've taken (for the most part) during the day, or how stressed you are, if you take 9mg of melatonin, you'll fall asleep in an hour. Period. Eventually, with some of the below, you can achieve the same affect with 1mg, and once you establish a regular schedule you'll no longer require it at all. 2. Wake Light [2] A natural sun alarm clock. If you get enough sleep (easy once the melatonin ensures you fall asleep on time), waking up to one of these is a breeze (and a joy). 3. Avoid Blue Light Same thing as the article states, avoid it. Computers, iPhone, etc... 4. Cold shower [3] It drops your body temperature and moves your blood away from your prefrontal cortex to your core alleviating your mind from racing. 5. Earplugs [4,5] My dogs feat clitter clatter across our hard wood floors. My wife wakes up before me. Our house creeks. etc.... Occasionally I also use an eye cover, but it's less impactful. 6. Socks & t-shirt [6] They help regulate body temperature. 7. Obey Your Sleep Cycles [7] Our bodies have natural sleep cycles (90m for the first, ~110m for the 2-3rd). When my alarm clock goes off, and I still feel sleepy, I roll over with my eyes facing my wake light and effectively snooze until I feel awake. Eventually the combination of white light and the conclusion of my sleep cycle, leave me feeling awake and alert. 8. Sleep alarm In my experience, it's been more important for me to set an alarm at night (9:45) to start getting ready for bed, than to set one in the morning. Having a regular sleep schedule allows you to work with your body instead of against it. If you're having trouble sleeping, or you anticipate having trouble, take melatonin until your body starts to adapt to your new schedule and it's no longer necessary. 9. Relax 1 hour before your sleep alarm you should be doing something relaxing. It won't matter if when your sleep alarm goes off, you're running around busily doing things. I make sure I'm doing something relaxing like watching TV or reading a book in bed for at least an hour before my sleep alarm goes off. 10. iPhone Wakeup One thing that helps wake me up on those difficult mornings is to crank the brightness on my iPhone and sit and read a few articles. The white light naturally tells my body it's time to start the day, and eventually I don't mind waking up. Life is so much better now that I can count on fantastic sleep every night! [1] http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/tc/melatonin-overview http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/tc/melatonin-overview [2] http://www.amazon.com/Philips-Hf3470-Wake-up-Light-White/dp/B003XN4RIC/ http://www.amazon.com/Philips-Hf3470-Wake-up-Light-White/dp/... [3] https://www.google.com/search?q=cold+shower+before+sleeping https://www.google.com/search?q=cold+shower+before+sleeping [4] http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0068HC0X4/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0068HC0X4/ref=oh_details_o... [5] http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H7MMP2/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H7MMP2/ref=oh_details_o... [6] http://lifehacker.com/wear-socks-to-fall-asleep-easily-476550620 http://lifehacker.com/wear-socks-to-fall-asleep-easily-47655... [7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#cite_ref-17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep#cite_ref-17

tudorconstantin 13y ago

I think this is just a matter of training and motivation. I am waking up each morning at 5:30am. I love the silence in the morning and the fact that i can do whatever i want, with no interruptions, at top concentration power. I could be at work at 7 am if i wanted to, but i am a programmer and most of my colleagues get there between 9 and 12, so 8am is just good.

sixQuarks 13y ago

I wasn't aware I had Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome until I read this. However, this was the main reason I became an entrepreneur. After suffering every morning during high school, I swore to myself that I would never use an alarm clock when I was an adult. I'm happy to say that I've achieved this goal, thanks to DSPS.

fractalsea 13y ago

So pleased I saw this. I overslept this morning and felt shit about it. Luckily the startup I work for doesn't care when I come in, but I know it will just mean it will be even later before I feel tired tonight. I've had identical problems for as long as I can remember. It's been so hard to track down the cause. I think it's partly stress/anxiety, but it also definitely correlates with being alone, on my computer, late at night. I installed f.lux but I haven't noticed any difference. I'll try some of these other suggestions and see if the combination makes any difference.

obviouslygreen 13y ago

"Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome." This is where you lost me. If you're arguing that it's normal, don't call it a freaking syndrome. Don't give it an ADHD-like name, don't make it a diagnosis. Say it's nature, say what you mean, stop with the excuses. You are making exactly the opposite of your case. No reasonable person will listen to the deluge of "treat your Shift Work Disorder with this pill" and "solve your Erectile Disfunction" with this pill and somehow hear "Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome" and not think "yeah... bullshit." If you want to alter people's idea of normal, don't frame your existence the way people frame diseases and disorders. You are not changing perspectives, you are reinforcing them, and you are making yourself look even more abnormal.

yoster 13y ago

Fuck I wish I had this problem. I have insomnia and I only get 3-4 hours of sleep a day.