5 ms·

He uses the word "chattel" because it's a term that was used in the slave trade, but he can get away with it because technically it's just another word for "cur

by drcode 14y ago

He uses the word "chattel" because it's a term that was used in the slave trade, but he can get away with it because technically it's just another word for "currency". It's a disgraceful smear. This is clearly going to get ugly. EDIT: Some stats from Google search, since this is a sensitive point and people are questioning what I'm saying (quotes included in the search): "chattel currency": 72 results "chattel property": 46,600 results "chattel slavery": 335,000 results

w1ntermute 14y ago
A fundamental advantage of BTC is that it's supposed to be free of government regulation or other forms of centralized control. The correct response to this is to (be absolutely sure that the government can't regulate it, and then) just ignore whatever the government says.
- Nursie 14y ago
  This works fine until real-world businesses start being shut down for accepting it. Not saying this will happen, but a determined government could easily put a huge dent in bitcoin usage.
  - iaw 14y ago
    More realistically what would happen is that the government would start imposing huge fines and tracking down those that evade them (such as tax cheats, except easier because tax cheaters are smarter than the average BTC user at fooling government regulators).
mikeyouse 14y ago
The level of perceived persecution in the bitcoin community is pretty humorous. Chattel is just tangible personal property that is moveable and hard to value. [1][2] Bart Chilton is probably most well known for his outing of the manipulation in the precious metals markets.[3] This guy is not bitcoin's enemy. Edit: From a writeup in which the EFF describes Trespass to Chattels in the context of digital goods[4]: "A trespass to chattels occurs when one party itentionally uses or intermeddles with personal property in rightful possession of another without authorization," Does that not sound entirely relevant to bitcoin exchanges? [1] http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/chattel.asp http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/chattel.asp [2] http://www.trustees.org.uk/review-index/Chattels-CGT-and-Chattels.php http://www.trustees.org.uk/review-index/Chattels-CGT-and-Cha... [3] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-26/silver-market-faced-fraudulent-efforts-to-control-price-chilton-says.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-26/silver-market-faced... [4] https://ilt.eff.org/index.php/Trespass_to_Chattels https://ilt.eff.org/index.php/Trespass_to_Chattels
- drcode 14y ago
  > Chattel is just tangible personal property Yes, this is what I wrote. Now type chattel into Google with autocomplete and tell me the first item that comes up for you as an autocomplete option...
  - Shivetya 14y ago
    Oddly I get the Merriam-Webster definition which shows n item of tangible movable or immovable property except real estate and things (as buildings) connected with real property. 2. : slave, bondman · See chattel ... I wonder if past search history affects results, my second result was from the free online dictionary and referenced cattle. I am not sure how I would take offense, perhaps certain groups are predisposed to do so?
    - JonnieCache 14y ago
      >I am not sure how I would take offense, perhaps certain groups are predisposed to do so? If that's a joke, you are a genius.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Worse, google won't even autocomplete the word "currency" after you type "chattel" and a search for "chattel currency", with quotes, returns fuck all other than stuff about this article.
    - dragonwriter 14y ago
      > Worse, google won't even autocomplete the word "currency" after you type "chattel" and a search for "chattel currency", with quotes, returns fuck all other than stuff about this article. It actually returns quite a lot of things other than this article, though much of it is chaff (things where you have something like "... chattel. Currency, ..."). Quite a lot of it, though, is sites unrelated to this article using it as a reference to non-legal-tender currency, most of which appear to be goldbug conspiracy theorist sites [1]. Though a couple of them [2], the use happens to reference the use of humans as "chattel currency", so I guess that's the closest thing to actual support to the "chattel currency" = "slavery" meme that is being peddled upthread. But even these uses actually are using "chattel currency" precisely as a something which is not legal tender used as a medium of exchange. [1] http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1472757/pg1 http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1472757/pg1 http://401k-retirement-plan.com/982/bob-chapman-the-financial-powers-that-be-are-in-a-trap-of-their-own-making-22/ http://401k-retirement-plan.com/982/bob-chapman-the-financia... http://boards.fool.com/us-debt-default-27483004.aspx?sort=whole http://boards.fool.com/us-debt-default-27483004.aspx?sort=wh... http://www.bust-video.info/v/yt:HKFSOjx9pAg/1 http://www.bust-video.info/v/yt:HKFSOjx9pAg/1 [2] http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/171930-emergency-powers-act-2011-a-3.html http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/171930-emergency-powers... http://www.qbn.com/topics/406933/1404054/ http://www.qbn.com/topics/406933/1404054/
wiredfool 14y ago
It's a legal term, see Trespass to chattels[1] Google search, "chattel tresspass" 183,000 results. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_to_chattels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_to_chattels
dragonwriter 14y ago
> He uses the word "chattel" because it's a term that was used in the slave trade, but he can get away with it because technically it's just another word for "currency". No, its not another word for currency. "Chattel" is a widely used legal term for personal property; its used as an adjective with "slavery" to specify a particular kind of slavery (the one in which slaves are legally treated as chattel, which while its probably the most familiar kind to most people is not the only thing considered "slavery"), but the term "chattel" itself isn't particularly associated with the slave trade. More relevant, "chattel currency" is a term for things used as currency that are not legal tender (its not exactly commonly used because there isn't a lot of need to discuss that particular class of things.) However, there is one place its pretty commonly used, and that's among the kind of conspiracy theorists (often goldbugs) who think (for example) that Federal Reserve banknotes aren't legal tender and are a scam to get you to surrender your "real" money (which these conspiracy theorists seem to think is still real legal tender) for "chattel currency". Given that a not-insignificant number of those conspiracy theorists seem to have flipped from being goldbugs to "bitbugs", I wouldn't be surprised if it was the use of the term "chattel currency" was calculated, but it certainly wasn't a slave trade reference. > Some stats from Google search Counting search results isn't a substitute for knowing what you are talking about. I'm actually surprised that "chattel property" (which is a redundancy) has that many results, but that doesn't change that "chattel" means personal property, and that its use to refer to that is the most common use. It is also true that "slavery" is a common context in which "chattel" is used as a modifier, and that use -- because specific discussion of that form of slavery as a class is much more common than specific discussion of non-legal-tender currency as a class -- is vastly more common than reference to chattel slavery. But that doesn't mean that "chattel currency" is a reference to chattel slavery, any more than the fact that "green" is far more frequently used as an adjective to modify "eyes" ("green eyes" -> "about 500,000,000 hits") than "grocer" ("green grocer" -> "about 1,840,000 hits") means that the phrase "green grocer" is a reference to "green eyes".
- drcode 14y ago
  Can you show me some example legal documents that use the phrase "chattel currency" with the meaning you ascribe to it?
mikeyouse 14y ago
I felt this deserved a separate response since it's attracted so much attention. It is immensely unhelpful to pretend to be offended by a phrase since you personally have only ever encountered it while reading Frederick Douglas. The concept of trespass to chattels is a very import question in digital law. It would serve the community to understand it better since the theory is largely where the CFAA gains legitimacy. Some starting points: * In relation to Aaron Swartz's case: http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericgoldman/2013/03/28/the-computer-fraud-and-abuse-act-is-a-failed-experiment/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericgoldman/2013/03/28/the-compu... * Eric Goldman from the Forbes article has an entire series regarding TtC: http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/trespass_to_chattels/ http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/trespass_to_chattels/ * Cyberproperty Law from the Indiana Law Review: http://indylaw.indiana.edu/ilr/pdf/vol40p23.pdf http://indylaw.indiana.edu/ilr/pdf/vol40p23.pdf
- drcode 14y ago
  You could certainly be right that the phrasing was intended in this manner. Clearly though Mr. Chilton was falling over himself to use the terms "money laundering" and "drugs" as much as possible. He was trying to use the nastiest, dismissive language he could to describe bitcoins, and given that the use of the term "chattel currency" is virtually unprecedented on the entirety of the internet it certainly seems worth raising an eyebrow at the use of this phrasing.
tptacek 14y ago
This is one of the dumber comments ever on HN.

by drcode 14y ago

w1ntermute 14y ago

A fundamental advantage of BTC is that it's supposed to be free of government regulation or other forms of centralized control. The correct response to this is to (be absolutely sure that the government can't regulate it, and then) just ignore whatever the government says.

Nursie 14y ago
This works fine until real-world businesses start being shut down for accepting it. Not saying this will happen, but a determined government could easily put a huge dent in bitcoin usage.
- iaw 14y ago
  More realistically what would happen is that the government would start imposing huge fines and tracking down those that evade them (such as tax cheats, except easier because tax cheaters are smarter than the average BTC user at fooling government regulators).

mikeyouse 14y ago

The level of perceived persecution in the bitcoin community is pretty humorous. Chattel is just tangible personal property that is moveable and hard to value. [1][2] Bart Chilton is probably most well known for his outing of the manipulation in the precious metals markets.[3] This guy is not bitcoin's enemy. Edit: From a writeup in which the EFF describes Trespass to Chattels in the context of digital goods[4]: "A trespass to chattels occurs when one party itentionally uses or intermeddles with personal property in rightful possession of another without authorization," Does that not sound entirely relevant to bitcoin exchanges? [1] http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/chattel.asp http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/chattel.asp [2] http://www.trustees.org.uk/review-index/Chattels-CGT-and-Chattels.php http://www.trustees.org.uk/review-index/Chattels-CGT-and-Cha... [3] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-26/silver-market-faced-fraudulent-efforts-to-control-price-chilton-says.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-26/silver-market-faced... [4] https://ilt.eff.org/index.php/Trespass_to_Chattels https://ilt.eff.org/index.php/Trespass_to_Chattels

drcode 14y ago
> Chattel is just tangible personal property Yes, this is what I wrote. Now type chattel into Google with autocomplete and tell me the first item that comes up for you as an autocomplete option...
- Shivetya 14y ago
  Oddly I get the Merriam-Webster definition which shows n item of tangible movable or immovable property except real estate and things (as buildings) connected with real property. 2. : slave, bondman · See chattel ... I wonder if past search history affects results, my second result was from the free online dictionary and referenced cattle. I am not sure how I would take offense, perhaps certain groups are predisposed to do so?
  - JonnieCache 14y ago
    >I am not sure how I would take offense, perhaps certain groups are predisposed to do so? If that's a joke, you are a genius.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Worse, google won't even autocomplete the word "currency" after you type "chattel" and a search for "chattel currency", with quotes, returns fuck all other than stuff about this article.
  - dragonwriter 14y ago
    > Worse, google won't even autocomplete the word "currency" after you type "chattel" and a search for "chattel currency", with quotes, returns fuck all other than stuff about this article. It actually returns quite a lot of things other than this article, though much of it is chaff (things where you have something like "... chattel. Currency, ..."). Quite a lot of it, though, is sites unrelated to this article using it as a reference to non-legal-tender currency, most of which appear to be goldbug conspiracy theorist sites [1]. Though a couple of them [2], the use happens to reference the use of humans as "chattel currency", so I guess that's the closest thing to actual support to the "chattel currency" = "slavery" meme that is being peddled upthread. But even these uses actually are using "chattel currency" precisely as a something which is not legal tender used as a medium of exchange. [1] http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1472757/pg1 http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1472757/pg1 http://401k-retirement-plan.com/982/bob-chapman-the-financial-powers-that-be-are-in-a-trap-of-their-own-making-22/ http://401k-retirement-plan.com/982/bob-chapman-the-financia... http://boards.fool.com/us-debt-default-27483004.aspx?sort=whole http://boards.fool.com/us-debt-default-27483004.aspx?sort=wh... http://www.bust-video.info/v/yt:HKFSOjx9pAg/1 http://www.bust-video.info/v/yt:HKFSOjx9pAg/1 [2] http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/171930-emergency-powers-act-2011-a-3.html http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/171930-emergency-powers... http://www.qbn.com/topics/406933/1404054/ http://www.qbn.com/topics/406933/1404054/

wiredfool 14y ago

It's a legal term, see Trespass to chattels[1] Google search, "chattel tresspass" 183,000 results. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_to_chattels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_to_chattels

dragonwriter 14y ago

> He uses the word "chattel" because it's a term that was used in the slave trade, but he can get away with it because technically it's just another word for "currency". No, its not another word for currency. "Chattel" is a widely used legal term for personal property; its used as an adjective with "slavery" to specify a particular kind of slavery (the one in which slaves are legally treated as chattel, which while its probably the most familiar kind to most people is not the only thing considered "slavery"), but the term "chattel" itself isn't particularly associated with the slave trade. More relevant, "chattel currency" is a term for things used as currency that are not legal tender (its not exactly commonly used because there isn't a lot of need to discuss that particular class of things.) However, there is one place its pretty commonly used, and that's among the kind of conspiracy theorists (often goldbugs) who think (for example) that Federal Reserve banknotes aren't legal tender and are a scam to get you to surrender your "real" money (which these conspiracy theorists seem to think is still real legal tender) for "chattel currency". Given that a not-insignificant number of those conspiracy theorists seem to have flipped from being goldbugs to "bitbugs", I wouldn't be surprised if it was the use of the term "chattel currency" was calculated, but it certainly wasn't a slave trade reference. > Some stats from Google search Counting search results isn't a substitute for knowing what you are talking about. I'm actually surprised that "chattel property" (which is a redundancy) has that many results, but that doesn't change that "chattel" means personal property, and that its use to refer to that is the most common use. It is also true that "slavery" is a common context in which "chattel" is used as a modifier, and that use -- because specific discussion of that form of slavery as a class is much more common than specific discussion of non-legal-tender currency as a class -- is vastly more common than reference to chattel slavery. But that doesn't mean that "chattel currency" is a reference to chattel slavery, any more than the fact that "green" is far more frequently used as an adjective to modify "eyes" ("green eyes" -> "about 500,000,000 hits") than "grocer" ("green grocer" -> "about 1,840,000 hits") means that the phrase "green grocer" is a reference to "green eyes".

drcode 14y ago
Can you show me some example legal documents that use the phrase "chattel currency" with the meaning you ascribe to it?

mikeyouse 14y ago

I felt this deserved a separate response since it's attracted so much attention. It is immensely unhelpful to pretend to be offended by a phrase since you personally have only ever encountered it while reading Frederick Douglas. The concept of trespass to chattels is a very import question in digital law. It would serve the community to understand it better since the theory is largely where the CFAA gains legitimacy. Some starting points: * In relation to Aaron Swartz's case: http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericgoldman/2013/03/28/the-computer-fraud-and-abuse-act-is-a-failed-experiment/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericgoldman/2013/03/28/the-compu... * Eric Goldman from the Forbes article has an entire series regarding TtC: http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/trespass_to_chattels/ http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/trespass_to_chattels/ * Cyberproperty Law from the Indiana Law Review: http://indylaw.indiana.edu/ilr/pdf/vol40p23.pdf http://indylaw.indiana.edu/ilr/pdf/vol40p23.pdf

drcode 14y ago
You could certainly be right that the phrasing was intended in this manner. Clearly though Mr. Chilton was falling over himself to use the terms "money laundering" and "drugs" as much as possible. He was trying to use the nastiest, dismissive language he could to describe bitcoins, and given that the use of the term "chattel currency" is virtually unprecedented on the entirety of the internet it certainly seems worth raising an eyebrow at the use of this phrasing.

tptacek 14y ago

This is one of the dumber comments ever on HN.