11 ms·

I dunno about software architects, but it's not terribly surprising that people are defensive over the engineering title. The difference in difficulty between

by zalzane 13y ago

I dunno about software architects, but it's not terribly surprising that people are defensive over the engineering title. The difference in difficulty between computer science courses and the engineering courses is like night and day, so it doesn't really surprise me when my EE/CE friends are frustrated when compsci majors try to call themselves engineers.

npsimons 13y ago
If a University's CS courses aren't hard, their CS grads will be worthless. Not only that, but if their CS program doesn't include at least the same freshman level classes that the other majors have to take (phys, chem, EE, etc), then their CS grads will be ill-equipped to work in the domains they need to. The attitude you describe of your EE/CE friends very much reminded of a fortune file quote that's been floating around for quite some time: "Yes, I am a real piece of work. One thing we learn at ULowell is how to flame useless hacking non-EE's like you. I am superior to you in every way by training and expertise in the technical field. Anyone can learn how to hack, but Engineering doesn't come nearly as easily. Actually, I'm not trying to offend all you CS majors out there, but I think EE is one of the hardest majors/grad majors to pass. Fortunately, I am making it." -- "Warrior Diagnostics" (wardiag@sky.COM) "Being both an EE and an asshole at the same time must be a terrible burden for you. This isn't really a flame, just a casual observation. Makes me glad I was a CS major, life is really pleasant for me. Have fun with your chosen mode of existence!" -- Jim Morrison (morrisj@mist.cs.orst.edu)
- nrivadeneira 13y ago
  I graduated with an ME degree and I now work as a software developer. I find that the traditional engineering coursework is more difficult than what I find with regards to CS. It's pretty easy to become a self-taught developer and even go through the online courses coming from MIT, etc. It's significantly more difficult to do the same for traditional engineering. In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the cost of failure in software doesn't often result in death.
  - npsimons 13y ago
    In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the cost of failure in software doesn't often result in death. That's nice; perhaps you should tell it to the victims of the Therac-25. Or maybe I'll remember it next time I'm writing some real-time software to control something silly like missile guidance. More and more software every day goes into controlling vital systems in our world . . . And how often do certified professional engineers design something critical? Does every circuit that goes into a consumer electronics device need to be ultra-safe? I'll grant you, there are a lot of shitty "software engineers" that have no business writing critical software. And many CS programs are severely lacking. But I picked up electronics in high school in my spare time, which makes me about as much an EE as your self-taught development skills make you a software engineer or architect. What gets me is the arrogance, in particular since the Iron Ring is supposed to carry with it a reminder that everyone is fallible, and to have humility in the face of that. More often than not, things like the iron ring set people apart, for better or for worse. There are plenty of hard things that people's live depend upon that nobody gets accredited for. Having some humility, and empathy, would go a long ways towards making Professional Engineers not just better people, but better Engineers.
    - kyzyl 13y ago
      > That's nice; perhaps you should tell it to the victims of the Therac-25. Or maybe I'll remember it next time I'm writing some real-time software to control something silly like missile guidance. More and more software every day goes into controlling vital systems in our world Yes. Totally agree. This idea that software engineers (perhaps I should use a different title in this thread :-) can fail without consequence is nonsense these days. I actually find it quite amusing (terrifying?) that so many engineers I know think they are a-okay with only a very basic understanding of CS. In fact, often "CS" is too strong a term to describe their knowledge. There's a very pervasive sentiment among engineers that they don't like programming, don't want to program, and shouldn't need to know about programming, let alone the deeper concepts of CS. Of course, a huge chunk of them go on to work with systems that involve computers. :-/ >And how often do certified professional engineers design something critical? Does every circuit that goes into a consumer electronics device need to be ultra-safe? Indeed, every PCB that goes into your microwave doesn't need to be EMP hardened and fault tolerant, and likely is not. But then also many of those applications that have become "commodity engineering" are no longer done by north american trained, "certified professional engineers". In any case, I think the point is you need to be trained so that you have the background to deal with a critical situation if it comes up. >What gets me is the arrogance, in particular since the Iron Ring is supposed to carry with it a reminder that everyone is fallible, and to have humility in the face of that Well, I have to mildly disagree with this. The ring is there to remind you that you are morally and ethically bound to the public good, at least insofar as your work is concerned. Many engineers are fiercely arrogant and could use a lesson in humility, but that's the job for parents/teachers/themselves/society in general, not a stainless steel torus or their professional association. As with many "old boys club" type groups, there is a serious amount of hazing and dues-paying that happens on the way up, and that has the effect of seriously distorting the perceptions of a lot of engineers. Also, a lot of the folks who are hotheads and spew arrogance are the types who would do that no matter where they were, be it on the soccer pitch or on HN. Being an engineer simply gives these types more opportunities, and an appeal to authority. >Having some humility, and empathy, would go a long ways towards making Professional Engineers not just better people, but better Engineers. Having some humility, and empathy, would go a long ways towards making <social segment> not just better people, but better <members of social segment>. Agreed :-)
whytookay 13y ago
I don't mean to be rude, but that's terribly generalizing. At least at my university, the difficulty is comparable, and the largest difference between a Software Engineering degree, and a Computer Science (well, BSC in the department of CS) degree is that software engineering has a slightly larger emphasis on hardware. Hell, many of the courses have huge overlaps in material, and both programs allow the courses in the other programs to be substituted for each other. I'm not arguing that CPSC majors should be allowed to call themselves engineers, but I believe you might be mistaken as to how different the two programs/fields may be.

by zalzane 13y ago

npsimons 13y ago

If a University's CS courses aren't hard, their CS grads will be worthless. Not only that, but if their CS program doesn't include at least the same freshman level classes that the other majors have to take (phys, chem, EE, etc), then their CS grads will be ill-equipped to work in the domains they need to. The attitude you describe of your EE/CE friends very much reminded of a fortune file quote that's been floating around for quite some time: "Yes, I am a real piece of work. One thing we learn at ULowell is how to flame useless hacking non-EE's like you. I am superior to you in every way by training and expertise in the technical field. Anyone can learn how to hack, but Engineering doesn't come nearly as easily. Actually, I'm not trying to offend all you CS majors out there, but I think EE is one of the hardest majors/grad majors to pass. Fortunately, I am making it." -- "Warrior Diagnostics" (wardiag@sky.COM) "Being both an EE and an asshole at the same time must be a terrible burden for you. This isn't really a flame, just a casual observation. Makes me glad I was a CS major, life is really pleasant for me. Have fun with your chosen mode of existence!" -- Jim Morrison (morrisj@mist.cs.orst.edu)

nrivadeneira 13y ago
I graduated with an ME degree and I now work as a software developer. I find that the traditional engineering coursework is more difficult than what I find with regards to CS. It's pretty easy to become a self-taught developer and even go through the online courses coming from MIT, etc. It's significantly more difficult to do the same for traditional engineering. In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the cost of failure in software doesn't often result in death.
- npsimons 13y ago
  In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the cost of failure in software doesn't often result in death. That's nice; perhaps you should tell it to the victims of the Therac-25. Or maybe I'll remember it next time I'm writing some real-time software to control something silly like missile guidance. More and more software every day goes into controlling vital systems in our world . . . And how often do certified professional engineers design something critical? Does every circuit that goes into a consumer electronics device need to be ultra-safe? I'll grant you, there are a lot of shitty "software engineers" that have no business writing critical software. And many CS programs are severely lacking. But I picked up electronics in high school in my spare time, which makes me about as much an EE as your self-taught development skills make you a software engineer or architect. What gets me is the arrogance, in particular since the Iron Ring is supposed to carry with it a reminder that everyone is fallible, and to have humility in the face of that. More often than not, things like the iron ring set people apart, for better or for worse. There are plenty of hard things that people's live depend upon that nobody gets accredited for. Having some humility, and empathy, would go a long ways towards making Professional Engineers not just better people, but better Engineers.
  - kyzyl 13y ago
    > That's nice; perhaps you should tell it to the victims of the Therac-25. Or maybe I'll remember it next time I'm writing some real-time software to control something silly like missile guidance. More and more software every day goes into controlling vital systems in our world Yes. Totally agree. This idea that software engineers (perhaps I should use a different title in this thread :-) can fail without consequence is nonsense these days. I actually find it quite amusing (terrifying?) that so many engineers I know think they are a-okay with only a very basic understanding of CS. In fact, often "CS" is too strong a term to describe their knowledge. There's a very pervasive sentiment among engineers that they don't like programming, don't want to program, and shouldn't need to know about programming, let alone the deeper concepts of CS. Of course, a huge chunk of them go on to work with systems that involve computers. :-/ >And how often do certified professional engineers design something critical? Does every circuit that goes into a consumer electronics device need to be ultra-safe? Indeed, every PCB that goes into your microwave doesn't need to be EMP hardened and fault tolerant, and likely is not. But then also many of those applications that have become "commodity engineering" are no longer done by north american trained, "certified professional engineers". In any case, I think the point is you need to be trained so that you have the background to deal with a critical situation if it comes up. >What gets me is the arrogance, in particular since the Iron Ring is supposed to carry with it a reminder that everyone is fallible, and to have humility in the face of that Well, I have to mildly disagree with this. The ring is there to remind you that you are morally and ethically bound to the public good, at least insofar as your work is concerned. Many engineers are fiercely arrogant and could use a lesson in humility, but that's the job for parents/teachers/themselves/society in general, not a stainless steel torus or their professional association. As with many "old boys club" type groups, there is a serious amount of hazing and dues-paying that happens on the way up, and that has the effect of seriously distorting the perceptions of a lot of engineers. Also, a lot of the folks who are hotheads and spew arrogance are the types who would do that no matter where they were, be it on the soccer pitch or on HN. Being an engineer simply gives these types more opportunities, and an appeal to authority. >Having some humility, and empathy, would go a long ways towards making Professional Engineers not just better people, but better Engineers. Having some humility, and empathy, would go a long ways towards making <social segment> not just better people, but better <members of social segment>. Agreed :-)

whytookay 13y ago

I don't mean to be rude, but that's terribly generalizing. At least at my university, the difficulty is comparable, and the largest difference between a Software Engineering degree, and a Computer Science (well, BSC in the department of CS) degree is that software engineering has a slightly larger emphasis on hardware. Hell, many of the courses have huge overlaps in material, and both programs allow the courses in the other programs to be substituted for each other. I'm not arguing that CPSC majors should be allowed to call themselves engineers, but I believe you might be mistaken as to how different the two programs/fields may be.