7 ms·

I was at a networking event once, and handed a gentleman my business card. My title listed on the card was 'Software Architect'. He himself was an actual Arch

I was at a networking event once, and handed a gentleman my business card. My title listed on the card was 'Software Architect'. He himself was an actual Architect (who designs physical structures), and he became upset and claimed I had absolutely no right to that title. I had never given it much thought until that point, but some folks are very protective over that sort of thing.

umsm 13y ago
I think he was over-reacting. Titles describe what we do, and to a certain degree, there can be a number of titles that can describe the work we do.
delinka 13y ago
I hate to break it to the guy, but if you architect software systems, you are indeed a Software Architect. You're not "an architect," you did not call yourself "an architect," but it's the word that fits the job. Now, if the World of Academia could attempt to catch up with technology (I know, it's a mad mad world that travels at high velocity and may even continue to accelerate, but a guy can dream) and start offering detailed courses of study for Computer Engineers & Architects, Data Engineers & Architects, Software Engineers & Architects, etc ... will the physical engineering world still have a problem with sharing their title?
- npsimons 13y ago
  In all fairness, there has never been anything quite like "architecting" software, or "engineering" software. As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects. Or we could just continue working, not caring what other people think. That's usually what I do, after I tell people I'm a "code monkey".
  - evilduck 13y ago
    I don't see the issue. Software is very abstract and tons of our vocabulary is stolen from concrete counterparts as metaphors, I can't see how you can object to "architect" without it being totally arbitrary or fundamentally not understanding computers. Just a short list of terms which we've appropriated for software: Bugs that don't bite, computer mice that don't squeak, bits you can't bite, windows you can't see through, desktops which do not involve desks, perls you can't wear, pythons which are neither British or snakes, rubies which are not red, gnu's which do not roam plains, dog-fooding which involves neither dogs or food, running which does not involve feet, killing things which does not involve death, zombies which are real, frameworks which do not involve lumber, libraries which do not involve books, bricks which cannot be built with, ajax you cannot clean with, bandaids that do not stop bleeding, androids which are not humanoid, chatting without talking, hits that are not violent, etc.
    - npsimons 13y ago
      You forgot monkeys that fling code instead of feces ;)
    - delinka 13y ago
      I can't figure out which comment to reply to, so allow me to stick this comment here... If we're going to perform all these pedantic semantic antics (did I really just do that?), then allow me to ruminate a moment: I do "develop" software. "Develop" has this connotation in my mind of a slow, meandering, possibly goal-free path. You "develop" skills over time - are they ever fully developed? Also, you "develop" film (and its prints) which certainly takes time, but is also kind of a curated, artistic process. Although I do feel that, at times, I sculpt, craft and develop a bit of software, I do this with ideas that are not quite formed; goals which are unknown; a kind of "I'll know it when I see it" project. I do "architect" systems. I have to decide on a backing store and the shape of the data in the store: RDBMS? KV Store? binary blob on disk? I have to decide on a communication method between the app and the data store: local, native API? Network socket using the store's client libs? HTTP CRUD? I have to consider the ways the user will use this app: touch? mouse? keyboard? does it need new gestures? "hot keys" or "chording"? I'll admit the user interaction is a bit more art, but there's usually some kind of specification for it. I do "engineer" systems. This feels more like implementation to me: I implement that data design; I implement the communication code (APIs don't plug themselves in to my project); I work around pitfalls and shortcomings continuously ... I am an artist, a sculptor; I am an architect and engineer; I am a handy-person and problem solver. Hi, I'm delinka and I create software.
  - hcarvalhoalves 13y ago
    > As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects. Developer.
    - recursive 13y ago
      Developing is what you do to real estate.
      - minikomi 13y ago
        As an amateur photographer who dabbles primarily with black and white film in my bathroom... I resent that!
  - catenate 13y ago
    > As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects. Peter Naur (of Backus-Naur form) called it "theory-building". https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/502901/naurtf.pdf https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/502901/naurtf.pdf
zalzane 13y ago
I dunno about software architects, but it's not terribly surprising that people are defensive over the engineering title. The difference in difficulty between computer science courses and the engineering courses is like night and day, so it doesn't really surprise me when my EE/CE friends are frustrated when compsci majors try to call themselves engineers.
- npsimons 13y ago
  If a University's CS courses aren't hard, their CS grads will be worthless. Not only that, but if their CS program doesn't include at least the same freshman level classes that the other majors have to take (phys, chem, EE, etc), then their CS grads will be ill-equipped to work in the domains they need to. The attitude you describe of your EE/CE friends very much reminded of a fortune file quote that's been floating around for quite some time: "Yes, I am a real piece of work. One thing we learn at ULowell is how to flame useless hacking non-EE's like you. I am superior to you in every way by training and expertise in the technical field. Anyone can learn how to hack, but Engineering doesn't come nearly as easily. Actually, I'm not trying to offend all you CS majors out there, but I think EE is one of the hardest majors/grad majors to pass. Fortunately, I am making it." -- "Warrior Diagnostics" (wardiag@sky.COM) "Being both an EE and an asshole at the same time must be a terrible burden for you. This isn't really a flame, just a casual observation. Makes me glad I was a CS major, life is really pleasant for me. Have fun with your chosen mode of existence!" -- Jim Morrison (morrisj@mist.cs.orst.edu)
  - nrivadeneira 13y ago
    I graduated with an ME degree and I now work as a software developer. I find that the traditional engineering coursework is more difficult than what I find with regards to CS. It's pretty easy to become a self-taught developer and even go through the online courses coming from MIT, etc. It's significantly more difficult to do the same for traditional engineering. In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the cost of failure in software doesn't often result in death.
    - 13y ago
nutmeg 13y ago
I know a software architect who was formerly an actual architect. His Facebook profile says: Architect (Buildings, not computers) and Architect (Computers, not buildings)
mturmon 13y ago
Thanks for that. Whether or not he was "right", it's salutary to be reminded of the relation of what we do to the more established "professions" requiring licensing, passing exams, and continuing education. My father was a CPA, and he used to occasionally go on a little rant about the distinction between CPAs and accountants.

umsm 13y ago

I think he was over-reacting. Titles describe what we do, and to a certain degree, there can be a number of titles that can describe the work we do.

delinka 13y ago

I hate to break it to the guy, but if you architect software systems, you are indeed a Software Architect. You're not "an architect," you did not call yourself "an architect," but it's the word that fits the job. Now, if the World of Academia could attempt to catch up with technology (I know, it's a mad mad world that travels at high velocity and may even continue to accelerate, but a guy can dream) and start offering detailed courses of study for Computer Engineers & Architects, Data Engineers & Architects, Software Engineers & Architects, etc ... will the physical engineering world still have a problem with sharing their title?

npsimons 13y ago
In all fairness, there has never been anything quite like "architecting" software, or "engineering" software. As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects. Or we could just continue working, not caring what other people think. That's usually what I do, after I tell people I'm a "code monkey".
- evilduck 13y ago
  I don't see the issue. Software is very abstract and tons of our vocabulary is stolen from concrete counterparts as metaphors, I can't see how you can object to "architect" without it being totally arbitrary or fundamentally not understanding computers. Just a short list of terms which we've appropriated for software: Bugs that don't bite, computer mice that don't squeak, bits you can't bite, windows you can't see through, desktops which do not involve desks, perls you can't wear, pythons which are neither British or snakes, rubies which are not red, gnu's which do not roam plains, dog-fooding which involves neither dogs or food, running which does not involve feet, killing things which does not involve death, zombies which are real, frameworks which do not involve lumber, libraries which do not involve books, bricks which cannot be built with, ajax you cannot clean with, bandaids that do not stop bleeding, androids which are not humanoid, chatting without talking, hits that are not violent, etc.
  - npsimons 13y ago
    You forgot monkeys that fling code instead of feces ;)
  - delinka 13y ago
    I can't figure out which comment to reply to, so allow me to stick this comment here... If we're going to perform all these pedantic semantic antics (did I really just do that?), then allow me to ruminate a moment: I do "develop" software. "Develop" has this connotation in my mind of a slow, meandering, possibly goal-free path. You "develop" skills over time - are they ever fully developed? Also, you "develop" film (and its prints) which certainly takes time, but is also kind of a curated, artistic process. Although I do feel that, at times, I sculpt, craft and develop a bit of software, I do this with ideas that are not quite formed; goals which are unknown; a kind of "I'll know it when I see it" project. I do "architect" systems. I have to decide on a backing store and the shape of the data in the store: RDBMS? KV Store? binary blob on disk? I have to decide on a communication method between the app and the data store: local, native API? Network socket using the store's client libs? HTTP CRUD? I have to consider the ways the user will use this app: touch? mouse? keyboard? does it need new gestures? "hot keys" or "chording"? I'll admit the user interaction is a bit more art, but there's usually some kind of specification for it. I do "engineer" systems. This feels more like implementation to me: I implement that data design; I implement the communication code (APIs don't plug themselves in to my project); I work around pitfalls and shortcomings continuously ... I am an artist, a sculptor; I am an architect and engineer; I am a handy-person and problem solver. Hi, I'm delinka and I create software.
- hcarvalhoalves 13y ago
  > As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects. Developer.
  - recursive 13y ago
    Developing is what you do to real estate.
    - minikomi 13y ago
      As an amateur photographer who dabbles primarily with black and white film in my bathroom... I resent that!
- catenate 13y ago
  > As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects. Peter Naur (of Backus-Naur form) called it "theory-building". https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/502901/naurtf.pdf https://dl.getdropbox.com/u/502901/naurtf.pdf

zalzane 13y ago

I dunno about software architects, but it's not terribly surprising that people are defensive over the engineering title. The difference in difficulty between computer science courses and the engineering courses is like night and day, so it doesn't really surprise me when my EE/CE friends are frustrated when compsci majors try to call themselves engineers.

npsimons 13y ago
If a University's CS courses aren't hard, their CS grads will be worthless. Not only that, but if their CS program doesn't include at least the same freshman level classes that the other majors have to take (phys, chem, EE, etc), then their CS grads will be ill-equipped to work in the domains they need to. The attitude you describe of your EE/CE friends very much reminded of a fortune file quote that's been floating around for quite some time: "Yes, I am a real piece of work. One thing we learn at ULowell is how to flame useless hacking non-EE's like you. I am superior to you in every way by training and expertise in the technical field. Anyone can learn how to hack, but Engineering doesn't come nearly as easily. Actually, I'm not trying to offend all you CS majors out there, but I think EE is one of the hardest majors/grad majors to pass. Fortunately, I am making it." -- "Warrior Diagnostics" (wardiag@sky.COM) "Being both an EE and an asshole at the same time must be a terrible burden for you. This isn't really a flame, just a casual observation. Makes me glad I was a CS major, life is really pleasant for me. Have fun with your chosen mode of existence!" -- Jim Morrison (morrisj@mist.cs.orst.edu)
- nrivadeneira 13y ago
  I graduated with an ME degree and I now work as a software developer. I find that the traditional engineering coursework is more difficult than what I find with regards to CS. It's pretty easy to become a self-taught developer and even go through the online courses coming from MIT, etc. It's significantly more difficult to do the same for traditional engineering. In addition, as someone mentioned elsewhere in the comments, the cost of failure in software doesn't often result in death.
  - 13y ago

nutmeg 13y ago

I know a software architect who was formerly an actual architect. His Facebook profile says: Architect (Buildings, not computers) and Architect (Computers, not buildings)

mturmon 13y ago

Thanks for that. Whether or not he was "right", it's salutary to be reminded of the relation of what we do to the more established "professions" requiring licensing, passing exams, and continuing education. My father was a CPA, and he used to occasionally go on a little rant about the distinction between CPAs and accountants.