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Sort of relevant: In Canada the word "Engineer" is protected. While I am a Computer Scientist, I can not call myself a Software Engineer (or any form of Enginee

Sort of relevant: In Canada the word "Engineer" is protected. While I am a Computer Scientist, I can not call myself a Software Engineer (or any form of Engineer), unlike in the US. In Canada you must have graduated from an Engineering College of a University to use the title.

Tiktaalik 13y ago
But in practice though I've found that pretty much all programming jobs are listed as "Software Engineer" and you'll get that on your card.
- saraid216 13y ago
  As a rule, I refer to myself as a "Web Developer". Sometimes the Engineer label gets slapped on me and I decline to make a fuss, but when I have a choice, I don't use it.
  - terolacu 13y ago
    I decided to use this title and never change it again: 'Programmer'. No more 'Rails Engineer', or 'Symfony2 Architect', or 'Clojure whatever'.
yurisagalov 13y ago
I actually don't think that's strictly true. Although there might be a stigma associated with calling yourself an Engineer if you didn't go through an Engineering program, it is only illegal to call yourself a Professional Engineer if you're not properly licensed. Graduating from an Engineering degree (and/or receiving an Iron Ring) has no real legal protection or obligation. The licensing requirements to become a Professional Engineer (or P. Eng) are as follows: * Graduate with a degree from an accredited program in engineering or applied science, accredited by the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board (CEAB). * Complete an Engineer in Training or "Engineering Internship" program under the direction of a P.Eng. (This is a minimum four-year program with the exception of Quebec) * Review of work experience by the Association, * Pass a Professional Practice Exam(content and format of which differs by province). source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en... edit: based on the "Title Usage: Canada" section in the same article, it does look like there were lawsuits and attempts to try and restrict the usage of the word Engineer, but it seems results were mixed at best, and vary widely from province to province, so I'll stand by my point that the only actual protected term is Professional Engineer
- potatolicious 13y ago
  Calling yourself a P.Eng without actually being a licensed P.Eng is very, very illegal. Calling yourself an Engineer without having graduated from a CEAB-accredited institution is also illegal, just that people don't care nearly as much as bout this. You will occasionally see job postings and titles for "software engineers" from companies that don't know about this particular legal snag, and for the most part it's not policed. You will sometimes see this dodged as "Engineering". "Junior Engineering" is a common moniker for someone who hasn't graduated yet, for example. The verb isn't protected, only the noun is.
  - larrydag 13y ago
    As a licensed Professional Engineer I worry about the state of engineering in the US. I feel the word "engineer" is diluted to mean any job that requires technical know-how. Yet there are important ethical considerations if one practices as an engineer. I wish the true engineering professions could have the "Engineer" title differentiated from these other technical professions but it looks like it won't happen anytime soon, if ever. For instance you couldn't practice law or medicine without specific accreditation but for some reason engineering is not differentiated. Sure you can't design a bridge unless you are an accredited Professional Engineer. But the engineer with that title is not differentiated in the marketplace unless the organization knows it.
    - gknoy 13y ago
      For those of us who are not Engineers, can you elaborate (or point us to more info) on the Important Ethical Considerations? I've always struggled to explain why programming is not engineering.
      - damoncali 13y ago
        As a programmer who was once an engineer by trade, I would say the difference is that engineering implies manipulation of the pysical sciences, where programming is just logic.
corresation 13y ago
Sort of. The PEO in Ontario once threatened Microsoft regarding the MCSE designation, causing Microsoft to temporarily recant. After their lawyers had a go at it, Microsoft decided that they have no risk in the Engineer in MCSE (the Wikipedia link that yurisagalov provided humorously holds that Microsoft renamed it to "IT Professional" to avoid the ire of engineers. Hardly. IT Pro was a blanket marketing term introduced years after deciding to ignore the PEO in Ontario -- http://peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/21494/la_id/1.htm http://peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/21494/la_id/1.htm). Similarly, countless people use the title Software Engineer, just as there are Sanitation Engineer and Train Engineers. Because the PEO has more bark than bite.
binarymax 13y ago
I was at a networking event once, and handed a gentleman my business card. My title listed on the card was 'Software Architect'. He himself was an actual Architect (who designs physical structures), and he became upset and claimed I had absolutely no right to that title. I had never given it much thought until that point, but some folks are very protective over that sort of thing.
- umsm 13y ago
  I think he was over-reacting. Titles describe what we do, and to a certain degree, there can be a number of titles that can describe the work we do.
- delinka 13y ago
  I hate to break it to the guy, but if you architect software systems, you are indeed a Software Architect. You're not "an architect," you did not call yourself "an architect," but it's the word that fits the job. Now, if the World of Academia could attempt to catch up with technology (I know, it's a mad mad world that travels at high velocity and may even continue to accelerate, but a guy can dream) and start offering detailed courses of study for Computer Engineers & Architects, Data Engineers & Architects, Software Engineers & Architects, etc ... will the physical engineering world still have a problem with sharing their title?
  - npsimons 13y ago
    In all fairness, there has never been anything quite like "architecting" software, or "engineering" software. As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects. Or we could just continue working, not caring what other people think. That's usually what I do, after I tell people I'm a "code monkey".
    - evilduck 13y ago
      I don't see the issue. Software is very abstract and tons of our vocabulary is stolen from concrete counterparts as metaphors, I can't see how you can object to "architect" without it being totally arbitrary or fundamentally not understanding computers. Just a short list of terms which we've appropriated for software: Bugs that don't bite, computer mice that don't squeak, bits you can't bite, windows you can't see through, desktops which do not involve desks, perls you can't wear, pythons which are neither British or snakes, rubies which are not red, gnu's which do not roam plains, dog-fooding which involves neither dogs or food, running which does not involve feet, killing things which does not involve death, zombies which are real, frameworks which do not involve lumber, libraries which do not involve books, bricks which cannot be built with, ajax you cannot clean with, bandaids that do not stop bleeding, androids which are not humanoid, chatting without talking, hits that are not violent, etc.
kruhft 13y ago
After graduation you get the title of EIT (Engineer In Training). After about 4-5 years of professional work you can submit to become a P.Eng. (Professional Engineer) after which you can be called an 'Engineer' at real Engineering companies. Anywhere else doesn't care and will call the guy taking out the garbage a Sanitation Engineer if they feel like it.
khuey 13y ago
It varies from state to state in the US.
Dirlewanger 13y ago
I wish this were the case in the US. Here, any mediocre moron out of a CS program can get a job and call himself a software engineer, and I think it's somewhat insulting.
namdnay 13y ago
Same thing in France or Germany, you can't call yourself (or your job position) a "diploma engineer" if you don't have a degree from an engineering college.

Tiktaalik 13y ago

But in practice though I've found that pretty much all programming jobs are listed as "Software Engineer" and you'll get that on your card.

saraid216 13y ago
As a rule, I refer to myself as a "Web Developer". Sometimes the Engineer label gets slapped on me and I decline to make a fuss, but when I have a choice, I don't use it.
- terolacu 13y ago
  I decided to use this title and never change it again: 'Programmer'. No more 'Rails Engineer', or 'Symfony2 Architect', or 'Clojure whatever'.

yurisagalov 13y ago

I actually don't think that's strictly true. Although there might be a stigma associated with calling yourself an Engineer if you didn't go through an Engineering program, it is only illegal to call yourself a Professional Engineer if you're not properly licensed. Graduating from an Engineering degree (and/or receiving an Iron Ring) has no real legal protection or obligation. The licensing requirements to become a Professional Engineer (or P. Eng) are as follows: * Graduate with a degree from an accredited program in engineering or applied science, accredited by the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board (CEAB). * Complete an Engineer in Training or "Engineering Internship" program under the direction of a P.Eng. (This is a minimum four-year program with the exception of Quebec) * Review of work experience by the Association, * Pass a Professional Practice Exam(content and format of which differs by province). source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en... edit: based on the "Title Usage: Canada" section in the same article, it does look like there were lawsuits and attempts to try and restrict the usage of the word Engineer, but it seems results were mixed at best, and vary widely from province to province, so I'll stand by my point that the only actual protected term is Professional Engineer

potatolicious 13y ago
Calling yourself a P.Eng without actually being a licensed P.Eng is very, very illegal. Calling yourself an Engineer without having graduated from a CEAB-accredited institution is also illegal, just that people don't care nearly as much as bout this. You will occasionally see job postings and titles for "software engineers" from companies that don't know about this particular legal snag, and for the most part it's not policed. You will sometimes see this dodged as "Engineering". "Junior Engineering" is a common moniker for someone who hasn't graduated yet, for example. The verb isn't protected, only the noun is.
- larrydag 13y ago
  As a licensed Professional Engineer I worry about the state of engineering in the US. I feel the word "engineer" is diluted to mean any job that requires technical know-how. Yet there are important ethical considerations if one practices as an engineer. I wish the true engineering professions could have the "Engineer" title differentiated from these other technical professions but it looks like it won't happen anytime soon, if ever. For instance you couldn't practice law or medicine without specific accreditation but for some reason engineering is not differentiated. Sure you can't design a bridge unless you are an accredited Professional Engineer. But the engineer with that title is not differentiated in the marketplace unless the organization knows it.
  - gknoy 13y ago
    For those of us who are not Engineers, can you elaborate (or point us to more info) on the Important Ethical Considerations? I've always struggled to explain why programming is not engineering.
    - damoncali 13y ago
      As a programmer who was once an engineer by trade, I would say the difference is that engineering implies manipulation of the pysical sciences, where programming is just logic.

corresation 13y ago

Sort of. The PEO in Ontario once threatened Microsoft regarding the MCSE designation, causing Microsoft to temporarily recant. After their lawyers had a go at it, Microsoft decided that they have no risk in the Engineer in MCSE (the Wikipedia link that yurisagalov provided humorously holds that Microsoft renamed it to "IT Professional" to avoid the ire of engineers. Hardly. IT Pro was a blanket marketing term introduced years after deciding to ignore the PEO in Ontario -- http://peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/21494/la_id/1.htm http://peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/21494/la_id/1.htm). Similarly, countless people use the title Software Engineer, just as there are Sanitation Engineer and Train Engineers. Because the PEO has more bark than bite.

binarymax 13y ago

I was at a networking event once, and handed a gentleman my business card. My title listed on the card was 'Software Architect'. He himself was an actual Architect (who designs physical structures), and he became upset and claimed I had absolutely no right to that title. I had never given it much thought until that point, but some folks are very protective over that sort of thing.

umsm 13y ago
I think he was over-reacting. Titles describe what we do, and to a certain degree, there can be a number of titles that can describe the work we do.
delinka 13y ago
I hate to break it to the guy, but if you architect software systems, you are indeed a Software Architect. You're not "an architect," you did not call yourself "an architect," but it's the word that fits the job. Now, if the World of Academia could attempt to catch up with technology (I know, it's a mad mad world that travels at high velocity and may even continue to accelerate, but a guy can dream) and start offering detailed courses of study for Computer Engineers & Architects, Data Engineers & Architects, Software Engineers & Architects, etc ... will the physical engineering world still have a problem with sharing their title?
- npsimons 13y ago
  In all fairness, there has never been anything quite like "architecting" software, or "engineering" software. As Brooks put it, software is the most complex thing humans have ever built; perhaps we should find some other term that sets us apart from ordinary engineers and architects. Or we could just continue working, not caring what other people think. That's usually what I do, after I tell people I'm a "code monkey".
  - evilduck 13y ago
    I don't see the issue. Software is very abstract and tons of our vocabulary is stolen from concrete counterparts as metaphors, I can't see how you can object to "architect" without it being totally arbitrary or fundamentally not understanding computers. Just a short list of terms which we've appropriated for software: Bugs that don't bite, computer mice that don't squeak, bits you can't bite, windows you can't see through, desktops which do not involve desks, perls you can't wear, pythons which are neither British or snakes, rubies which are not red, gnu's which do not roam plains, dog-fooding which involves neither dogs or food, running which does not involve feet, killing things which does not involve death, zombies which are real, frameworks which do not involve lumber, libraries which do not involve books, bricks which cannot be built with, ajax you cannot clean with, bandaids that do not stop bleeding, androids which are not humanoid, chatting without talking, hits that are not violent, etc.

kruhft 13y ago

After graduation you get the title of EIT (Engineer In Training). After about 4-5 years of professional work you can submit to become a P.Eng. (Professional Engineer) after which you can be called an 'Engineer' at real Engineering companies. Anywhere else doesn't care and will call the guy taking out the garbage a Sanitation Engineer if they feel like it.

khuey 13y ago

It varies from state to state in the US.

Dirlewanger 13y ago

I wish this were the case in the US. Here, any mediocre moron out of a CS program can get a job and call himself a software engineer, and I think it's somewhat insulting.

namdnay 13y ago

Same thing in France or Germany, you can't call yourself (or your job position) a "diploma engineer" if you don't have a degree from an engineering college.