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Iron Ring
- traeblain 13y agoThe US version of this group is the Order of the Engineer: http://www.order-of-the-engineer.org/ http://www.order-of-the-engineer.org/
- drd 13y agoAfter introducing the ring, still bridges collapsed in Quebec while in service not at construction and people died. I am not sure how effective is this ring.
- adekok 13y agoAfter making murder illegal, people are still murdered. Therefore, laws against murder are ineffective.
- astrodust 13y agoNotably there was no Iron Ring for the people running the companies building the bridges and rigging contracts. It's a huge scandal now that went "all the way to the top". http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/former-montreal-mayor-and-his-no-2-next-up-at-corruption-inquiry/article11199304/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/former-montreal...
- simlevesque 13y agoWhat the hell did I just read ? It was not bridges, but a single overpass that fell and it is unrelated to the ring or engineers. The main problem was that two governements failed to identify the weaknesses because they wanted to save money. I despise people like you who try to link two totally unrelated facts to sound smart. http://www.cevc.gouv.qc.ca/ http://www.cevc.gouv.qc.ca/
- drd 13y agoOoops, I apologize pal, I guess I hurt your feelings, I didn’t mean that. But here is another example: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/07/30/montreal-tunnel-collapse-viger-tunnel_n_1721175.html http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/07/30/montreal-tunnel-coll... BTW, I don’t need to sound smart and still I like you.
- guiomie 13y agoMy friend, this is just politics. This is a case of poor leadership trying to blame someone else for their own error (lack of investment in infrastructure). This as nothing to do with the iron ring.
- johlindenbaum 13y agoSort of relevant: In Canada the word "Engineer" is protected. While I am a Computer Scientist, I can not call myself a Software Engineer (or any form of Engineer), unlike in the US. In Canada you must have graduated from an Engineering College of a University to use the title.
- Tiktaalik 13y agoBut in practice though I've found that pretty much all programming jobs are listed as "Software Engineer" and you'll get that on your card.
- saraid216 13y agoAs a rule, I refer to myself as a "Web Developer". Sometimes the Engineer label gets slapped on me and I decline to make a fuss, but when I have a choice, I don't use it.
- terolacu 13y agoI decided to use this title and never change it again: 'Programmer'. No more 'Rails Engineer', or 'Symfony2 Architect', or 'Clojure whatever'.
- yurisagalov 13y agoI actually don't think that's strictly true. Although there might be a stigma associated with calling yourself an Engineer if you didn't go through an Engineering program, it is only illegal to call yourself a Professional Engineer if you're not properly licensed. Graduating from an Engineering degree (and/or receiving an Iron Ring) has no real legal protection or obligation. The licensing requirements to become a Professional Engineer (or P. Eng) are as follows: * Graduate with a degree from an accredited program in engineering or applied science, accredited by the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board (CEAB). * Complete an Engineer in Training or "Engineering Internship" program under the direction of a P.Eng. (This is a minimum four-year program with the exception of Quebec) * Review of work experience by the Association, * Pass a Professional Practice Exam(content and format of which differs by province). source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en... edit: based on the "Title Usage: Canada" section in the same article, it does look like there were lawsuits and attempts to try and restrict the usage of the word Engineer, but it seems results were mixed at best, and vary widely from province to province, so I'll stand by my point that the only actual protected term is Professional Engineer
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- Tiktaalik 13y agoNon-Engineers notice my iron ring surprisingly often (ie. "oh my old roommate was an engineer"). It's a great conversation starter.
- theorique 13y agoIndeed ... It's fun to joke around before telling people the real story - "oh, this is my Serbian Mafia ring ... all the guys in Belgrade have them"
- stygiansonic 13y agoAgreed. It's quite easy to notice someone wearing one and that easily segues into questions about which discipline they chose, what school they went to and inevitably, how they use relatively little of their engineering/school knowledge in their day-to-day job. ;)
- raawlls 13y agoNon-engineers notice mine all the time too. I'm so used to wearing though (and sort of forget that I am sometimes) that usually there's a few seconds where I'm very confused as to how they know I'm an engineer. It's also great for tapping out a rhythm on any hard surface you can find.
- TheCapn 13y agoMy girlfriend calls it a cult -Which is partially true if you were to attend the ceremony-. There's an unspoken bond with most engineers that we can get along quite easily when we recognize the ring which adds to the "cult" persona
- alex_c 13y agoRandom trivia: the "iron version" picture is of my own ring, uploaded a few years back when I was messing around with my friend's new camera. Pleasant surprise not only to see this on HN, but to see that the picture is still there after all this time :) As far as I know my year (2005) was one of the last years that U of T still offered an actual iron version, as opposed to stainless steel (most other schools no longer did at that time). I'm not sure if it's still possible to get one today. Another option was to get an old ring from retired engineers who were no longer practicing and returned their ring to be used by the next generation... something that I thought was pretty amazing and humbling.
- kruhft 13y agoThere was no option to get an Iron version back when I graduated in '97. The story was the iron ones turned your finger black so they stopped selling them. Still have mine after all these years and it doesn't come off anymore, so I think I'll be taking it to the grave.
- ars 13y agoI hope you never need an MRI. It really doesn't come off?
- kruhft 13y agoI guess it could be cut off if I really needed to :) But other than that, no it doesn't come off. You tend to gain weight as you get older, even on your fingers.
- Anderkent 13y agoShouldn't you get it adjusted then? I'd be afraid of losing the finger if it gets too tight.
- watersoul 13y agoWe can usually get new ones for about 15$. I don't think the adjustment costs less. There is also the option of not wearing it, as wearing rings that keeps touching a mouse is annoying sometimes.
- whaevr 13y ago(Facet)nating.. The things you learn from just casually browsing HN
- nealabq 13y agoUpon reading this, I wanted one. With inscriptions reminding me of the theoretical and the practical aspects of my craft. Maybe "λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x))" and "10 PRINT "Hello World" 20 GOTO 10". But is that really the point? To proclaim how clever (I imagine) I am. I think the ring is meant to be a reminder that I'm part of something bigger, something important. And that I have a responsibility to other engineers, and also to everyone else. That's why I try to make my code comprehensible to the engineer 5 years down the road. That's the "why" of open-source. So that's why I think the ring is simple. Because individually I'm fallible and often wrong, and I need reminding.
- windsurfer 13y agoI think having the ring is one thing, but earning it is another.
- betterunix 13y agoI think the ability to explain the meaning of an inscription on the ring could serve as proof that it was earned. Going with the example that was given, if you can explain the meaning and significance of a fixed point combinator, there should be no question about your worth as a computer scientist.
- adamgravitis 13y agoIt's actually not about having "earned" it; it's not meant to be a token of having completed the degree, or having been stupendously good at some technical piece of work. It's meant as a reminder to the obligation you have to society not to cut corners on safety, and that your responsibilities to your employer do not outweigh those you have to Canadians generally.
- flashmedium 13y agoand an engineer needs a ring to remind him of the above?
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- moioci 13y agoInstead of an iron ring, should software Engineers be awarded an infinite loop, possibly in the form of a Moebius strip?
- Tyrannosaurs 13y agoThe science writer Simon Singh wears a Mobius scarf (a neck scarf sewed together as a Mobius strip). Pretty easy to do if you wanted to. I'm guessing he's not the only one but he's the one I've come across.
- npsimons 13y agoPerhaps we should have a silicon ring for software engineers. And in case you are thinking "that would break too easily", well that's part of the point: to remind you that software can also be very easily broken, sometimes without even trying :)
- dreen 13y agoA friend of mine made a ring out of little transistors for his girlfriend. They're married now, she even wore it during the wedding.
- claudius 13y agoWouldn’t a rubber ring be more suitable for a software engineer? It also wouldn’t break that easily :)
- npsimons 13y agoI can see it now: two rings, one rubber to represent user requirements, and the other silicon to represent the systems we have to implement those requirements in.
- fghh45sdfhr3 13y agoGlass ring encased in rubber, with a label claiming it is exactly as flexible and stretchable as a 100% rubber ring would be.
- claudius 13y agoI am getting somewhat jealous now – people should make wearable cyclic particle accelerators or something like that for those hacking nature rather than mere computers :-)
- saulrh 13y agoDiamond made out of isotopically pure carbon-14. Ring laser gyroscope. Negative-refractive-index metamaterial. A single giant LED. Nanolithography to produce structural coloration. I've wanted a cool physics ring for quite a while.
- plam 13y agoI never wore mine. Got one mostly to be able to go through the ritual with friends. OT: Funny to see that the term 'engineer' is held in high regard in Canada but here in UK there's no such connotation.
- arethuza 13y ago"in UK there's no such connotation" That is a real shame given the UK's fantastic history of engineering. Still, I guess it was something that an engineer came out second in the BBC's poll of the Top 100 Britons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel
- dreen 13y agoWell the Chartered Engineer title awarded by the IET was always held high in regard at my uni (which, in theory at least, is focused on Engineering). Unfortunately for me though, there is little point spending time, energy and money to acquire one as a Software Engineer, as it applies to Mech/Civil etc schools more.
- sergiotapia 13y agoIs there something like this for Software developers? We make the world go round and round; shouldn't we also have something this beautiful?
- efferifick 13y agoSoftware Engineers get them too! Sadly, Computer Science students won't get them.
- adamgravitis 13y agoThis depends on the university. At UofT, for example, "software engineering" is actually taught outside of the engineering faculty, and is not CEAB approved... and therefore doesn't qualify.
- abhinavg 13y agoActually, Computer Engineering is taught by the Engineering faculty at UofT. Software Engineering is still a specialization under the Computer Science degree, and is taught by the Arts & Science faculty.
- efferifick 13y agoSorry, I study at the UofA and we have a "software option" within the Computer Engineering program. Students graduating from this branch will get the iron ring. I just assumed that Software Engineers elsewhere got them too.
- grumps 13y agoYes, at MST/UMR the Comp Sci degree isn't applicable to engineering. I don't recall if computer engineering is/was because it's taught by the EE staff and Comp Sci staff. Even if you had an engineering degree you still didn't get the ring. I believe you had to go to some sort of ethics classes before we'd be given the opportunity to purchase the ring.
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- Morphling 13y agoI really like the simplicity. Finnish versions are kind a lame. ( http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/multimedia/archive/00059/sormus_59700a.jpg http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/multimedia/archive/00059/sormu... )
- dcuthbertson 13y agoSo, who has the one ring to rule them all?
- JeanPierre 13y agoCuriously, NTNU/NTH got a similar tradition which officially started in 1914, 8-11 years earlier[1, 2]. I wonder if these rings or the "identity crises" (the NTH-ring was designed to give former NTH (now engineering) students an identity, whereas this iron ring represents the obligations and ethics) have some correlation or not. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTH_Ring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTH_Ring [2]: http://www.ntnu.no/ntnu/old/glos/glos_nr.5_1995/ringen.html http://www.ntnu.no/ntnu/old/glos/glos_nr.5_1995/ringen.html
- Serow225 13y agoI got mine in 2003 for a B. Sc in Mechanical Engineering, but since I ended up going to work at a software development company, I decided not to wear it - just felt wrong. This was a personal choice, YMMV :)
- dsshimel 13y agoI also got a BS in MechE, then got a job as a software engineer, so now my girlfriend wears my ethics ring. I guess we're exempt from programming morally!
- proland 13y agoIt is illegal to wear the ring in any fashion if you are not a practicing engineer (as you should have been told when you were obligated).
- napoleond 13y ago"Illegal" is probably the wrong word to use here, since the iron ring is not governed by any municipal, provincial, or federal law. I have a B.Sc. EE and yet work mostly in web/mobile software. I don't consider or present myself as a "practicing engineer" but I still wear the ring as a reminder of the obligation I have towards anything I create for other people to use. I probably wouldn't give it to my girlfriend to wear, but to each their own.
- proland 13y agoActually it is the right word. The ring is a registered symbol of the Corporation of the Seven Wardens, and wearing or displaying one without their permission (via having been obligated) or attempting to sell one is illegal in exactly the same way that using any other entity's trademark without their permission is illegal. That said, if you've been obligated and are working in a technical field, but don't really consider yourself an 'engineer' you can still wear it, so long as you hold yourself to the values it represents.
- JimmaDaRustla 13y agoThey need something like this for auto mechanics - they don't feel obligated for any responsibility...
- HorizonXP 13y agoMy Iron Ring has been a conversation starter wherever I travel, and I've only had it for 5 years. Any time I'm in the Valley, people recognize the ring and ask if I went to Waterloo. Funny thing is that I did, but I usually try to explain to them that all Canadian engineering graduates wear it, not just Waterloo. I was even in Italy with my then-girlfriend-now-fiancee, and I had someone strike up a conversation with me because of the ring; they realized that we were likely Canadian, and started telling us about their son. The Iron Ring really does establish a type of brother/sister-hood amongst us Canadian engineers. It's a nice feeling.
- format 13y agoI was at the grocery store and the cashier motioned to my hand and showed me her ring and we had a short discussion. I felt happy that I had this bond with a person I had never met and then immediately very sad that she was working as a cashier in a grocery store.
- stygiansonic 13y agoI've also had a few interesting discussions. One was also with a cashier, who I discovered had graduated from my alma mater with a degree in geological engineering. She was now working on poetry and other writing and she seemed genuinely happy with what she was doing. More power to her. Another was when I visited New York for the marathon. Ran into another fellow at the airport who recognized I was from Canada because of my MEC backpack. I then noticed he had on a ring and turned out he was a professor who had once taught at my alma mater.
- radioxid 13y agoFunnily enough, I found mine in the rotating part of a 2.5" hard drive. I'm happy to learn this is a thing among us engineers!
- seanc 13y agoI know a handful of electrical engineers with scars on their fingers from getting these things too close to a hot board. It's a beautiful idea, but sometimes you don't want a high wattage resistor on your dominant hand...
- malkia 13y agoGame developers carry rings too... two around their eyes due to crunching :)
- saraid216 13y agoSure that's not the red ring of death?
- spiritplumber 13y agoI wish our school did this, I feel I missed out on a cool ritual. Can't wear rings on grounds of you don't wear jewelry in a workshop :) Me and my significant other cast and etched pendants for each other though. :)
- amackera 13y agoSo strange to see this popping up on Hacker News. I always thought of it as a sort of obscure Canadian tradition (even many people within Canada have no idea what my ring represents, and ask me about it occasionally). The ring is a great tradition, it brings engineers together with a sense of obligation and identity; however, in the effort of full disclosure, non-Canadian HNers should be aware that some people decide not to be ringed on ethical grounds, citing possible sexist and elitist connotations in the traditional and the ritual itself.
- d0c5 13y agoMy father has one, I saw it many years ago and never knew what it meant, if anything. Thanks man!
- krs 13y agoThere is an American equivalent to the iron ring, but the organization behind it expressly prohibits membership to CS and Software Engineering graduates last time I checked. Screw them. I got one on my own. I had a custom jewelist take the cladding off a simple band of white gold. I wear it for the same reason mentioned by others: to remind me of my obligations to my profession, my customers and clients, and to the public at large.
- joyeuse6701 13y agoUCLA '12, stainless was our only option if I recall. Even amongst my engineering buddies, few actually knew of the ritual/ring and that they could obtain one! I have to say I like mine =)
- nvarsj 13y agoThis is pretty neat. I'm a 2005 engineering graduate (CSE) and never knew about this. I wonder if I can get one ex post facto.
- joyeuse6701 13y agoYou might, given that graduation is coming up they usually have some booth in between Boelter and math&sciences to get your ring size and order in.
- bw2 13y agoWhile this will like devolve into a trite discussion about why programming computers is just the same as building a bridge, it's offensive that the software industry takes for granted just how much work goes into earning something like this ring versus coding JavaScript. I worked my way through college doing web development while studying 80 hours per week on top of that for years to get my engineering degrees. Having systematic devaluation of that is deflating, if not wrong.
- seabrookmx 13y agoIt's also offensive that non-computer science majors take for granted how much work goes into earning a CS degree. Coding JavaScript is to Computer Science as drafting is to a Mechanical Engineer. Your argument shows how naive your CS knowledge really is. Also, as has been stated, SEng majors can get the iron ring, so the whole argument you are talking about is moot.
- Tyrannosaurs 13y agoThis is because the industry, like most groups, values outputs, not inputs. The skills you have, how you use them and where you learned them are inputs which means that on their own they are largely irrelevant. It's entirely possible to make a good career, delivering genuine value to organisations and individuals, doing work you can be proud of without having any understanding of CS beyond that you'll pick up during your day to day work and a little reading around the subject. I've worked with great programmers who graduated in science, history, psychology, electronic engineering and so on. These were people who could go toe to toe technically with CS graduates and in some cases they bought things to the table that added significant value which were relatively rare in people with a more conventional computing background. Why does the fact of having not studied computer science formally make them any less valuable? Bottom line: yes you worked very hard to get your degree and made a significant financial investment in it, but what's important now is what you do with it and that's what you'll be judged on. If you can't translate that knowledge into results why should it be significant?
- turing 13y agoIn looking into the United States' adoption of this[1], I noticed that there is actually a fledgling organization aimed at computer scientists, 'The Pledge of the Computing Professional'. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer
- danshapiro 13y ago"Early attempts to extend The Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer to the United States were unsuccessful due to complications including copyright issues."
- dsaber 13y agoEven though I'm currently living in Silicon Valley, I still where my Canadian engineering ring. Many people ask me what it's for. Usually, people are surprised to learn about it. In contrast, it feels good that in Canada I don't have answer similar questions: most know what it's for.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]