6 ms·

The residents who fight tooth and nail against going up and more dense forms of housing are just as much to blame as the BoS. The city could ignore them, yes, b

The residents who fight tooth and nail against going up and more dense forms of housing are just as much to blame as the BoS. The city could ignore them, yes, but government is about what people want. Most residents of San Francisco -- homeless, tech, lower-income, whatever -- want absolutely nothing to change except for what makes them happier. And in most cases, the loudest, wealthiest, Pac Heights/Sea Cliff voices want the "charm" of San Francisco to stay the same. Meanwhile, it's one of the most undesirable places to merely walk around that I've come across in my life, and I only work in the city because I have to. I will never move to the city. Some of the comments are already popping up on TechCrunch; "do you want SF to be the next NYC?" My answer to that is abso-fucking-lutely. New York City is perfectly suited to dense living without gritting your teeth; the subways run 24/7, the risk of stepping in homeless shit is significantly lower, there are very few places in NYC that make me cringe as much as the TL after sundown, the varying cultures get along and complement each other instead of beating Google Bus piñatas at a dirty-ass BART station... If San Francisco slowly became the next New York City I'd be pleased as a peach. (Imagine NYC with SF's weather!) But it will never happen in our lifetimes. Honestly, I think it's a California thing, because L.A. has a better shot at it and that's not going to happen either.

cafard 13y ago
"Meanwhile, it's one of the most undesirable places to merely walk around that I've come across in my life" How so? I know the city only as a tourist, and in that capacity thought it pretty pleasant to walk through. Politically, San Francisco will never be New York: New York incorporates its own suburbs, and the outer boroughs can outvote Manhattan.
- tiredofcareer 13y ago
  San Francisco is one of the only places I've ever commuted where the question isn't if you'll step in human shit, but when. The quality of my workday usually begins with "did I get a face full of hot, evaporating urine and avoid a pile of shit on the way here today? no? gonna be a good day." The people that live near my office on the ground level have put up "please don't defecate near our door, this leads right into our living room" signs. Good luck getting anybody to care. Nobody cares. I bet if someone dropped a deuce in front of a New York bodega, there'd be a dozen locals competing to rinse it off. I love New Yorkers. Tough as nails and been through some shit, man, and you really get that in the culture. Walk around late enough in the same neighborhood and appear vulnerable and see what happens, too. If you stuck to the various places that we keep squeaky-clean for tourists, that's why you didn't notice.
  - enraged_camel 13y ago
    What is it about San Francisco that causes its denizens to defecate on the streets? I've visited it as a tourist many times, and have walked around extensively in neighborhoods such as Nob Hill, Fisherman's Wharf, Union Square, Financial District, and Inner/Outer Richmond. Never stepped on human shit, much less dog shit.
    - tiredofcareer 13y ago
      You basically just listed five awesome and/or touristy neighborhoods and a tourist destination, that's why. Most startup types here commute to SoMa, and, well...
    - tptacek 13y ago
      Homelessness.
      - w1ntermute 13y ago
        SF needs to do what NYC did in the 90s. Bring in someone like Giuliani who will really crack down on these issues. That's basically impossible though with all the liberals in SF.
        _delirium 13y ago
        I'm not sure I'd call NYC's policy less liberal overall, though it's different. It puts considerably more effort (and money!) into providing housing in the first place: about 5% of NYC's population is housed in public housing, versus about 1% for SF. NYC's homeless shelters have also been somewhat more effective at transitioning people off the streets and into apartments, though with recent budget cuts some of the programs that were used for that have been cut, so we'll see if that persists.
        thrownaway2424 13y ago
        The difference between SF and NYC is in SF the homeless never freeze to death. And the difference between SF and Oakland is in Oakland the cops will taser you and the street gangs will break your legs for sleeping in the wrong neighborhood. Compared to everywhere else, SF is a hobo paradise.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  San Francisco's tourist areas is almost like a completely separate universe than San Francisco's residential areas. On one side you have old streetcars, cable cars, cute restaurants, tourist traps, and wide sidewalks. On the other side you have extreme poverty, homelessness, gang wars, a huge violent crime problem, literal shit and piss in the streets, and enough race and class tension to cut with a knife. The two seldom cross, but they do sometimes. The southern end of the Powell cable car stop is one such place. Walk just a teensy bit further west along Market and you will notice a complete collapse of the city. In the Union Square area head just a few blocks west and you will be in the middle of the Tenderloin, which is the infamous heart of unsavory and disgusting things that happen in the city. More adventurous tourists that don't rely strictly on the most standard guides will also get to see the other side of the city. Find your way down to El Farolito in the Mission for their famous tacos and burritos? Welcome, you're now in contested gang territory where randoms get shot as part of gang initiations. It's a puzzling city. I lived there for a year, and while I enjoyed a lot of it, my overall impression was deeply negative.
  - gregholmberg 13y ago
    I have a similarly mixed opinion about the City. I used to love to go to the Roxie Theater in the Mission, where they showed movies you might never encounter otherwise. During a retrospective for some anniversary of a Friedkin film, the great director himself just came walking up the sidewalk right through his speechless fans. On the other hand, I have been stuck in traffic on Mission near 17th while the SFPD put down rows of little yellow numbered plastic cones across three lanes of traffic -- one for each shell casing. Is there any public transit facility less welcoming than the urine-drenched BART station slash homeless zoo at 16th? Yes, actually. Just pop down to 24th, if you dare. Heroin dealers used to turn little alleys off of 26th into open-air markets in the wee hours. Maybe they still do. I just can't bring myself to visit the Mission anymore.
  - beatpanda 13y ago
    You're way overstating the violence in the Mission. I think you're actually thinking about Oakland, where random people get shot all the time.
aaronbrethorst 13y ago
> it's one of the most undesirable places to merely walk around that I've come across in my life I hear that. Every time I come to SF I'm reminded of why I never want to live there (I live in Seattle). > "do you want SF to be the next NYC?" +1. Frankly, I see a lot of the same shit (not literally, but you get the idea) here in Seattle, and I find it incredibly disappointing. There's constant hand-wringing about the lack of affordable housing, but the minute solutions are proposed, all of the once-upon-a-time hand-wringers vociferously cry out "Not in my backyard!" The NIMBYism has to stop. I can only hope that as people in their 20s grow older and turn into those louder, wealthier voices, that they remember just how much it sucked for them to live in a city that didn't properly increase population density when it should've.
- jbooth 13y ago
  I wouldn't hold your breath. The current generation of suits were protestors in the 60s before giving themselves debt-financed tax cuts in the 80s and complaining about socialist kenyans in the 10s.
mikeash 13y ago
The fear that SF would turn into NYC is definitely odd. Seems to me that SF has already taken on the bad aspects of being NYC, while avoiding many of the good aspects. Becoming more like NYC could only be an improvement.
rayiner 13y ago
I think L.A. is going to happen because it has a dictatorial and thus effective office of Mayor. Antonio Villaraigosa has been cracking the whip and I think his successors can follow in his footsteps.
- tiredofcareer 13y ago
  You never answered me on the private school comment; did you miss my reply?
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Oh, I forgot to follow up. Private schools tend to be very different in terms of stuff like what happened with that girl. Its a mix of the higher end parent base along with tuition checks on the line.
gadders 13y ago
This is a good article on the homelessness in SF: http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_4_san-francisco-homeless.html http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_4_san-francisco-homeless...

cafard 13y ago

"Meanwhile, it's one of the most undesirable places to merely walk around that I've come across in my life" How so? I know the city only as a tourist, and in that capacity thought it pretty pleasant to walk through. Politically, San Francisco will never be New York: New York incorporates its own suburbs, and the outer boroughs can outvote Manhattan.

tiredofcareer 13y ago
San Francisco is one of the only places I've ever commuted where the question isn't if you'll step in human shit, but when. The quality of my workday usually begins with "did I get a face full of hot, evaporating urine and avoid a pile of shit on the way here today? no? gonna be a good day." The people that live near my office on the ground level have put up "please don't defecate near our door, this leads right into our living room" signs. Good luck getting anybody to care. Nobody cares. I bet if someone dropped a deuce in front of a New York bodega, there'd be a dozen locals competing to rinse it off. I love New Yorkers. Tough as nails and been through some shit, man, and you really get that in the culture. Walk around late enough in the same neighborhood and appear vulnerable and see what happens, too. If you stuck to the various places that we keep squeaky-clean for tourists, that's why you didn't notice.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  What is it about San Francisco that causes its denizens to defecate on the streets? I've visited it as a tourist many times, and have walked around extensively in neighborhoods such as Nob Hill, Fisherman's Wharf, Union Square, Financial District, and Inner/Outer Richmond. Never stepped on human shit, much less dog shit.
  - tiredofcareer 13y ago
    You basically just listed five awesome and/or touristy neighborhoods and a tourist destination, that's why. Most startup types here commute to SoMa, and, well...
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Homelessness.
    - w1ntermute 13y ago
      SF needs to do what NYC did in the 90s. Bring in someone like Giuliani who will really crack down on these issues. That's basically impossible though with all the liberals in SF.
      - _delirium 13y ago
        I'm not sure I'd call NYC's policy less liberal overall, though it's different. It puts considerably more effort (and money!) into providing housing in the first place: about 5% of NYC's population is housed in public housing, versus about 1% for SF. NYC's homeless shelters have also been somewhat more effective at transitioning people off the streets and into apartments, though with recent budget cuts some of the programs that were used for that have been cut, so we'll see if that persists.
      - thrownaway2424 13y ago
        The difference between SF and NYC is in SF the homeless never freeze to death. And the difference between SF and Oakland is in Oakland the cops will taser you and the street gangs will break your legs for sleeping in the wrong neighborhood. Compared to everywhere else, SF is a hobo paradise.
potatolicious 13y ago
San Francisco's tourist areas is almost like a completely separate universe than San Francisco's residential areas. On one side you have old streetcars, cable cars, cute restaurants, tourist traps, and wide sidewalks. On the other side you have extreme poverty, homelessness, gang wars, a huge violent crime problem, literal shit and piss in the streets, and enough race and class tension to cut with a knife. The two seldom cross, but they do sometimes. The southern end of the Powell cable car stop is one such place. Walk just a teensy bit further west along Market and you will notice a complete collapse of the city. In the Union Square area head just a few blocks west and you will be in the middle of the Tenderloin, which is the infamous heart of unsavory and disgusting things that happen in the city. More adventurous tourists that don't rely strictly on the most standard guides will also get to see the other side of the city. Find your way down to El Farolito in the Mission for their famous tacos and burritos? Welcome, you're now in contested gang territory where randoms get shot as part of gang initiations. It's a puzzling city. I lived there for a year, and while I enjoyed a lot of it, my overall impression was deeply negative.
- gregholmberg 13y ago
  I have a similarly mixed opinion about the City. I used to love to go to the Roxie Theater in the Mission, where they showed movies you might never encounter otherwise. During a retrospective for some anniversary of a Friedkin film, the great director himself just came walking up the sidewalk right through his speechless fans. On the other hand, I have been stuck in traffic on Mission near 17th while the SFPD put down rows of little yellow numbered plastic cones across three lanes of traffic -- one for each shell casing. Is there any public transit facility less welcoming than the urine-drenched BART station slash homeless zoo at 16th? Yes, actually. Just pop down to 24th, if you dare. Heroin dealers used to turn little alleys off of 26th into open-air markets in the wee hours. Maybe they still do. I just can't bring myself to visit the Mission anymore.
- beatpanda 13y ago
  You're way overstating the violence in the Mission. I think you're actually thinking about Oakland, where random people get shot all the time.

aaronbrethorst 13y ago

> it's one of the most undesirable places to merely walk around that I've come across in my life I hear that. Every time I come to SF I'm reminded of why I never want to live there (I live in Seattle). > "do you want SF to be the next NYC?" +1. Frankly, I see a lot of the same shit (not literally, but you get the idea) here in Seattle, and I find it incredibly disappointing. There's constant hand-wringing about the lack of affordable housing, but the minute solutions are proposed, all of the once-upon-a-time hand-wringers vociferously cry out "Not in my backyard!" The NIMBYism has to stop. I can only hope that as people in their 20s grow older and turn into those louder, wealthier voices, that they remember just how much it sucked for them to live in a city that didn't properly increase population density when it should've.

jbooth 13y ago
I wouldn't hold your breath. The current generation of suits were protestors in the 60s before giving themselves debt-financed tax cuts in the 80s and complaining about socialist kenyans in the 10s.

mikeash 13y ago

The fear that SF would turn into NYC is definitely odd. Seems to me that SF has already taken on the bad aspects of being NYC, while avoiding many of the good aspects. Becoming more like NYC could only be an improvement.

rayiner 13y ago

I think L.A. is going to happen because it has a dictatorial and thus effective office of Mayor. Antonio Villaraigosa has been cracking the whip and I think his successors can follow in his footsteps.

tiredofcareer 13y ago
You never answered me on the private school comment; did you miss my reply?
- rayiner 13y ago
  Oh, I forgot to follow up. Private schools tend to be very different in terms of stuff like what happened with that girl. Its a mix of the higher end parent base along with tuition checks on the line.

gadders 13y ago

This is a good article on the homelessness in SF: http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_4_san-francisco-homeless.html http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_4_san-francisco-homeless...