16 ms·

On Friday I had a remote interview where I was asked to search for the value closest to X in a sorted 2D array (columns and rows are both sorted in increasing o

by dpiers 13y ago

On Friday I had a remote interview where I was asked to search for the value closest to X in a sorted 2D array (columns and rows are both sorted in increasing order). I came up with a trivial solution to find a specific value, but got tripped up modifying it to find an unknown value that could be higher or lower than the target. I have not heard back from the company. On Saturday/Sunday, I went to AngelHack SF and did a solo-project that ended up placing 2nd amongst +80 teams and netted me a $2500 credit from Firebase and an invitation to AngelHack's accelerator. Am I a bad developer, too? Or is the hiring practice of reducing someone's technical competence to a handful of esoteric questions arbitrary and broken? I am much more proud of the things I have built and the reputation I have with the other developers I have worked with than I am of my ability to find the longest common subsequence between two strings. I'm guilty of asking these kinds of questions, too. The truth is it is incredibly hard to gauge a programmer's skills and figure out whether they fit into your team over the course of a half-hour interview, and nobody really has figured out a good way to do it. We're stuck with arbitrary questions that yield false negatives (and positives) simply because there isn't a better solution. Edit: Aaannd in the course of writing this I received an offer letter and an email from someone at a16z asking about my AngelHack project, so I guess my job hunt is over. When it rains, it pours.

barce 13y ago
Ya, I've been the victim of "couldn't balance a B-Tree fast enough so you're not hired but you'll never see a B-Tree at work." You mention that there isn't a better solution. IMHO, I disagree. I think Github has figured out a way. They've been around 5 years and haven't fired anybody and nobody has quit. Most firings are due to a job / job skill mismatch. At Github, they do a week long paid interview so both sides really know what they're getting into. I don't work at Github, but am such a fan of their company.
- mseebach 13y ago
  Github and many other high profile companies have the benefit of a much larger talent funnel than more average companies. They can literally sit back and wait for the proverbial rock-star ninja to make a passionate appeal to come and work for them. They can filter anyone without a 4.0 from a top school (not that they would, but that's not the point) and still be working with a bigger pool than lesser companies do, pre-filtering. Never mind actually selling yourself so those you might want to hire will actually accept your offer. Lesser companies simply have to take more chances on people if they want to have a shot at growing their teams. They will naturally fail more than companies that don't have to take that shot.
  - igul222 13y ago
    True, they have a bigger talent funnel than smaller companies, but don't forget that they also need far more new hires than smaller companies. I wonder which factor dominates.
    - mseebach 13y ago
      I didn't say "small", I said "lesser". Also, GitHub just have 166 employees (https://github.com/about https://github.com/about) - presumably not all engineers. Any ten random selected medium sized software companies easily eclipses their volume.
- pbiggar 13y ago
  What make you think GitHub haven't fired anybody? I don't know that they have, but it seems very unlikely.
  - stouset 13y ago
    In fact, they have fired a few people.
  - marblar 13y ago
    Holman has in the past made the claim that nobody's quit. I wonder if that still holds up?
  - barce 13y ago
    Ya, I got my info from Holman. My info's old.
- beatpanda 13y ago
  A friend of a friend was recently fired from Github. I don't know where you got this information from.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
redact207 13y ago
Or is the hiring practice of reducing someone's technical competence to a handful of esoteric questions arbitrary and broken The irony is whenever someone posts some esoteric "gotcha" programming trick here on HN, inevitably there'll be comments like "have to include this in our next interviews." So what would you do differently? This is a genuine question after I came off 3 months of interviewing daily. I'm curious what does represent a good developer and how to decide this in 30 minutes over the phone? What's important? - Past projects? - Communication? - Open source contributions? - Ability to write code? - Telling me how they'd Google a problem? - How to break down problems? - Some % combination of these? My interviews are generally structured: 10 min: introduction to the role, expectations, motivations, try to start a conversation, get a feel for the candidate, nerves etc 15 min: technical questions: - fundamentals on the job's tech stack (must provide code) - turning a requirement into a design - troubleshooting issues (db performance, web server issues) 5 min: - wrap up, q&a
- masukomi 13y ago
  I look for relevant experience, personality, and problem solving skills. I start off with questions that'll get me an insight into the person then I give them a written problem that'll take them 10+ minutes to answer. I want to see them work through it, see what they get stuck on, see when they ask questions and what questions they ask. I ignore syntax errors, and similar minutiae. If you don't have good problem solving skills I don't see how you can be a useful member of my team.
rubinelli 13y ago
First, congratulations. Good luck wherever you choose to go. It may be counter-intuitive, but the more qualified you are, the longer you have to look for a job. A fresh-faced junior developer just out of college can be hired pretty quickly, because he/she isn't a big risk: the salary is lower, the responsibility is lower, and it's assumed there will be some adult supervision from an experienced developer. A senior developer is expected to hit the ground running, and a bad fit can create a lot of team friction and technical debt in a short time. (And your own standards are higher, so not every company will do.)
- mseebach 13y ago
  Also, it goes the other way: A senior engineer will be a lot more picky, and take more care to scope out good places with hard problems: The places that have higher bars for hiring.
- nilkn 13y ago
  My uncle is a senior marketing executive and I can confirm that whenever he conducts a job search it is an epic undertaking. So this tends to be true in many industries, not just software engineering.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
bicknergseng 13y ago
> Or is the hiring practice of reducing someone's technical competence to a handful of esoteric questions arbitrary and broken? Certainly the hiring practices of Google et al, generally the worst perpetrators of cs bingo in my experience. Started a startup, you say? Rebuilt a non-trivial webapp? Won a hackathon? That's great, but we're going to need you to implement red-black trees and variations of fizzbuzz until your brain bleeds.
- weareconvo 13y ago
  Did interviews for 5+ years at Google... the real problem is that there's no uniformity to the hiring process. I was allowed to just make up my own questions and judge candidates based on those. And I did so. And admittedly, the questions I asked were so difficult that I seriously doubt I myself could've answered them when I first got hired. But I didn't give a crap, because hiring is something you're kind of coerced into doing (it's not technically required, but not doing interviews looks bad at promotion time). And I hated doing interviews with a passion, so I'd just give them one impossibly hard question, which is easier than asking a bunch of questions.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - ryderm 13y ago
    Wow, glad I've never been interviewed by you.
  - nilkn 13y ago
    > And admittedly, the questions I asked were so difficult that I seriously doubt I myself could've answered them when I first got hired. Would you be willing to share any of the questions you asked? Your description here has piqued my curiosity.
    - weareconvo 13y ago
      No, but I would like to hastily assure you that it is solely because I am a coward when it comes to NDA issues.
tootie 13y ago
Confirmed. I give interviews and people get offers or not based on my feedback. I also don't know what I'm doing. It could be Imposter's Syndrome or maybe that's just what imposters tell themselves.
juaninfinitelop 13y ago
I had a similar experience. I was asked to do some coding, got hung up on one of the questions. Right on the spot I was told I wasn't a perfect match. Not directly saying it but definitely implying it, they said they needed someone who can actually code. I guess having deployed multiple projects and code to show for it isn't worth anything if you can't code a variation of fizz buzz. The hiring practice is a little off. If anyone ever asks me for advice on job hunting, I'll definitely tell them to exhaust all networking outlets e.g. programing meets, hackathons, friends of friends, before applying directly.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
doanhqdo 13y ago
I saw your hack at AngelHack SF. It was a great product and I was surprise that you did not get the grand prize. I think that the problems with technical interviews is that they focus more on algorithms than actual code. While this practice is good for recruiting students out of school who should know by heart the most efficient search or sorting algorithms, it puts people who have been in the industry or who often work in freelance jobs at a considerable disadvantage. Unless you are working at Google or Facebook where efficiency is super important, the interview questions that Silicon Valley companies ask often do a bad job of filtering out the right candidate. I thought that your hack was very good. I think that you could turn it into a business if you wanted to.
- dpiers 13y ago
  Thanks! I am still working on Coderang (the version I showed yesterday is up at http://coderang.com http://coderang.com), and I think I could definitely turn it into a business. I was told that the only reason I didn't win the grand prize was some of the judges didn't think I could have made the app by myself during the competition/I had cheated. Honestly, I'm more flattered that they thought I was too good to win than I would have been if I had won. :)
  - doanhqdo 13y ago
    Great. contact me at doanhqdo at berkeley.edu if you want some free business advice. I am currently working on a start-up that is being incubated out of the UC Berkeley's Skydeck incubator. I should be able to connect you with some people if you'd like.

by dpiers 13y ago

barce 13y ago

Ya, I've been the victim of "couldn't balance a B-Tree fast enough so you're not hired but you'll never see a B-Tree at work." You mention that there isn't a better solution. IMHO, I disagree. I think Github has figured out a way. They've been around 5 years and haven't fired anybody and nobody has quit. Most firings are due to a job / job skill mismatch. At Github, they do a week long paid interview so both sides really know what they're getting into. I don't work at Github, but am such a fan of their company.

mseebach 13y ago
Github and many other high profile companies have the benefit of a much larger talent funnel than more average companies. They can literally sit back and wait for the proverbial rock-star ninja to make a passionate appeal to come and work for them. They can filter anyone without a 4.0 from a top school (not that they would, but that's not the point) and still be working with a bigger pool than lesser companies do, pre-filtering. Never mind actually selling yourself so those you might want to hire will actually accept your offer. Lesser companies simply have to take more chances on people if they want to have a shot at growing their teams. They will naturally fail more than companies that don't have to take that shot.
- igul222 13y ago
  True, they have a bigger talent funnel than smaller companies, but don't forget that they also need far more new hires than smaller companies. I wonder which factor dominates.
  - mseebach 13y ago
    I didn't say "small", I said "lesser". Also, GitHub just have 166 employees (https://github.com/about https://github.com/about) - presumably not all engineers. Any ten random selected medium sized software companies easily eclipses their volume.
pbiggar 13y ago
What make you think GitHub haven't fired anybody? I don't know that they have, but it seems very unlikely.
- stouset 13y ago
  In fact, they have fired a few people.
- marblar 13y ago
  Holman has in the past made the claim that nobody's quit. I wonder if that still holds up?
- barce 13y ago
  Ya, I got my info from Holman. My info's old.
beatpanda 13y ago
A friend of a friend was recently fired from Github. I don't know where you got this information from.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

redact207 13y ago

Or is the hiring practice of reducing someone's technical competence to a handful of esoteric questions arbitrary and broken The irony is whenever someone posts some esoteric "gotcha" programming trick here on HN, inevitably there'll be comments like "have to include this in our next interviews." So what would you do differently? This is a genuine question after I came off 3 months of interviewing daily. I'm curious what does represent a good developer and how to decide this in 30 minutes over the phone? What's important? - Past projects? - Communication? - Open source contributions? - Ability to write code? - Telling me how they'd Google a problem? - How to break down problems? - Some % combination of these? My interviews are generally structured: 10 min: introduction to the role, expectations, motivations, try to start a conversation, get a feel for the candidate, nerves etc 15 min: technical questions: - fundamentals on the job's tech stack (must provide code) - turning a requirement into a design - troubleshooting issues (db performance, web server issues) 5 min: - wrap up, q&a

masukomi 13y ago
I look for relevant experience, personality, and problem solving skills. I start off with questions that'll get me an insight into the person then I give them a written problem that'll take them 10+ minutes to answer. I want to see them work through it, see what they get stuck on, see when they ask questions and what questions they ask. I ignore syntax errors, and similar minutiae. If you don't have good problem solving skills I don't see how you can be a useful member of my team.

rubinelli 13y ago

First, congratulations. Good luck wherever you choose to go. It may be counter-intuitive, but the more qualified you are, the longer you have to look for a job. A fresh-faced junior developer just out of college can be hired pretty quickly, because he/she isn't a big risk: the salary is lower, the responsibility is lower, and it's assumed there will be some adult supervision from an experienced developer. A senior developer is expected to hit the ground running, and a bad fit can create a lot of team friction and technical debt in a short time. (And your own standards are higher, so not every company will do.)

mseebach 13y ago
Also, it goes the other way: A senior engineer will be a lot more picky, and take more care to scope out good places with hard problems: The places that have higher bars for hiring.
nilkn 13y ago
My uncle is a senior marketing executive and I can confirm that whenever he conducts a job search it is an epic undertaking. So this tends to be true in many industries, not just software engineering.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

bicknergseng 13y ago

> Or is the hiring practice of reducing someone's technical competence to a handful of esoteric questions arbitrary and broken? Certainly the hiring practices of Google et al, generally the worst perpetrators of cs bingo in my experience. Started a startup, you say? Rebuilt a non-trivial webapp? Won a hackathon? That's great, but we're going to need you to implement red-black trees and variations of fizzbuzz until your brain bleeds.

weareconvo 13y ago
Did interviews for 5+ years at Google... the real problem is that there's no uniformity to the hiring process. I was allowed to just make up my own questions and judge candidates based on those. And I did so. And admittedly, the questions I asked were so difficult that I seriously doubt I myself could've answered them when I first got hired. But I didn't give a crap, because hiring is something you're kind of coerced into doing (it's not technically required, but not doing interviews looks bad at promotion time). And I hated doing interviews with a passion, so I'd just give them one impossibly hard question, which is easier than asking a bunch of questions.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- ryderm 13y ago
  Wow, glad I've never been interviewed by you.
- nilkn 13y ago
  > And admittedly, the questions I asked were so difficult that I seriously doubt I myself could've answered them when I first got hired. Would you be willing to share any of the questions you asked? Your description here has piqued my curiosity.
  - weareconvo 13y ago
    No, but I would like to hastily assure you that it is solely because I am a coward when it comes to NDA issues.

tootie 13y ago

Confirmed. I give interviews and people get offers or not based on my feedback. I also don't know what I'm doing. It could be Imposter's Syndrome or maybe that's just what imposters tell themselves.

juaninfinitelop 13y ago

I had a similar experience. I was asked to do some coding, got hung up on one of the questions. Right on the spot I was told I wasn't a perfect match. Not directly saying it but definitely implying it, they said they needed someone who can actually code. I guess having deployed multiple projects and code to show for it isn't worth anything if you can't code a variation of fizz buzz. The hiring practice is a little off. If anyone ever asks me for advice on job hunting, I'll definitely tell them to exhaust all networking outlets e.g. programing meets, hackathons, friends of friends, before applying directly.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

doanhqdo 13y ago

I saw your hack at AngelHack SF. It was a great product and I was surprise that you did not get the grand prize. I think that the problems with technical interviews is that they focus more on algorithms than actual code. While this practice is good for recruiting students out of school who should know by heart the most efficient search or sorting algorithms, it puts people who have been in the industry or who often work in freelance jobs at a considerable disadvantage. Unless you are working at Google or Facebook where efficiency is super important, the interview questions that Silicon Valley companies ask often do a bad job of filtering out the right candidate. I thought that your hack was very good. I think that you could turn it into a business if you wanted to.

dpiers 13y ago
Thanks! I am still working on Coderang (the version I showed yesterday is up at http://coderang.com http://coderang.com), and I think I could definitely turn it into a business. I was told that the only reason I didn't win the grand prize was some of the judges didn't think I could have made the app by myself during the competition/I had cheated. Honestly, I'm more flattered that they thought I was too good to win than I would have been if I had won. :)
- doanhqdo 13y ago
  Great. contact me at doanhqdo at berkeley.edu if you want some free business advice. I am currently working on a start-up that is being incubated out of the UC Berkeley's Skydeck incubator. I should be able to connect you with some people if you'd like.