4 ms·

The 80 year old editor that just will not die. Which reminds me I need to fill my lamp with kerosene. Wouldn't wanna adapt to electric powered lighting.

by mmorett 13y ago

mmorett 13y ago
Bait taken. Side bet won. Point proven. Thou shalt not criticize VI/VIM/Emacs or anything remotely Linux related on HN. Now let's see if we can get enough downvotes to put me in negative territory.
- mackwic 13y ago
  Could you possibly imagine that keyboards are even older than vim ? And people still use it. Incredible. :-)
  - mmorett 13y ago
    In the absence of another more advance means of communicating with a computer, keyboards are all we have. Mice help, new touch screens help, but the big one (I think) could be voice. And I have no idea what Google Glass uses, but that's another potential example. With VIM, it's not that it's an editor, or old, but downright archaic. Folks just won't let go.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - x1024 13y ago
      Open source is only as old as its latest commit. https://code.google.com/p/vim/source/list https://code.google.com/p/vim/source/list Which, in this case, seems to be 5 hours.
      - fmoralesc 13y ago
        Also, one of the last commits (patch 924) is a HUGE deal for someone like me who has written plugins in python (global, window and buffer-level options can be now set using vim's python API). Let's hope mappings come next!
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - pekk 13y ago
      It's fine for you to use whatever tools you want, even if they are under-powered toys. But qualitative hand-waving like 'archaic' shouldn't be confused with an objective disadvantage.
      - mmorett 13y ago
        http://delvarworld.github.io/blog/2013/03/16/just-use-sublime-text/ http://delvarworld.github.io/blog/2013/03/16/just-use-sublim... I would love to take credit for having read that prior to using the word archaic. I didn't. I formed my own opinion. I just happened to find that blog post a few minutes ago while searching on Sublime Text 2. The fact that he expresses my thoughts much more elegantly than me fills me with envy. But he's correct.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        erifneerg 13y ago
        Did you miss the part where he says over and over how he uses vim? Did you read the replies on reddit where this was originally posted to where there are rebuttal to the author's claims? http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/1aq1lx/just_use_sublime_text/ http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/1aq1lx/just_use_sublime... http://vpaste.net/fA7rH http://vpaste.net/fA7rH Vim is a text editor and that's it. If you want it do be an IDE you're going to have a bad time. I'd recommend this piece on Unix as IDE http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/ http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - eliasmacpherson 13y ago
      Further to the point made about vim being a text manipulation language - it's very well defined. Voice control is a more advanced means of communicating with a computer, keyboards are not all we have anymore. What you're saying is contradicted by what's demonstrated right here. Voice works right now with vim's text manipulation language, have a look at the vim golf example. This ancient technology could be used to make voice editing a reality for people who would rather learn 'delete five lines' than "5dd". I haven't yet seen another editor that would allow code be manipulated this was with voice controls, besides emacs. It's a testament to the configurability and extensibility of vim that it can stay current in this manner. VimGolf is basically a challenge to make certain edits with as few vim commands as possible. Unless I am mistaken, google glass uses the android voice recognition software.
- barbs 13y ago
  http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them. and Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downmod you. Somehow, I don't think your being downvoted was a result of your non-constructive "criticism".
pekk 13y ago
The difference between this and kerosene is that there are real reasons to use electricity rather than kerosene, whereas the only reason you have not to use emacs or vim is some kind of personal preference, not the lack of some modern text editing technology.
terhechte 13y ago
You got downvoted because you criticize something which you obviously have no clue of. The reason why vim, in its various incarnations, is still being used is because vim is not an editor, vim is a highly powerful text manipulation language. The main implementation of said language being Vim, with implementations for lots of other editors (Sublime, Xcode, Eclipse, even Emacs). If I'd find a better text manipulation language than vim, I'd switch in a heartbeat. I've yet to find one.
- mmorett 13y ago
  Please. vim is an editor. Whether vim is a language, which has an implementation known as vim which is an editor, is irrelevant. I referred to the implementation. And it was clear I was referring to the editor. You might wanna correct Wikipedia and tons of other sources that all refer to vim the editor. Cuz they are all wrong, per your definition.
  - terhechte 13y ago
    Yes, and no. I was referring to your criticism that people still use it. See, people do not use it because it is vim, the editor, but because it is vim, the text manipulation language. Really. There's nothing great about the editor itself, it is rather clunky, lacks solid UI abstractions, blocks the UI while it is busy doing something, has an awful scripting language (vim script), and more. If you take away the text manipulation language, nobody would use it. Another point validating that is that people write vim-layers for all kinds of editors and IDEs. They don't port the editor (i.e. the weird UI blocking, or the text mode, or the other things or even vim script), they port the text manipulation language. Coming back to what I originally said: You seem to not get vim, and how it allows to easily modify text with a manipulation language (not a programming language!). Say I'm at the beginning of a line: #[exampleObject: obj displayTitle: @"this is the title"]; [delegateDoSomethingWith: @"this is the title"]; Say I want to take the 'this is the title', and change the contents to 'new title. In the vim-language, that's the following code (cursor pos is the #): /@"<CR>2lci"new title<ESC>n2l. or Vj:s/this is the title/new title/<CR> This is a simple example, but for moving around text and manipulating it (i.e. everything after you wrote the initial code / function class / whatever) it is beyond fantastic. What's not so good, as outlined above, is vim the editor, simply because it is old and doesn't have a more modern UI, etc. There're many projects that tried to address this, but everyone, so far, failed to implement the text manipulation language as deeply as in the reference implementation vim. What comes close is evil for emacs.

The 80 year old editor that just will not die. Which reminds me I need to fill my lamp with kerosene. Wouldn't wanna adapt to electric powered lighting.

by mmorett 13y ago

The 80 year old editor that just will not die. Which reminds me I need to fill my lamp with kerosene. Wouldn't wanna adapt to electric powered lighting.

mmorett 13y ago

Bait taken. Side bet won. Point proven. Thou shalt not criticize VI/VIM/Emacs or anything remotely Linux related on HN. Now let's see if we can get enough downvotes to put me in negative territory.

mackwic 13y ago
Could you possibly imagine that keyboards are even older than vim ? And people still use it. Incredible. :-)
- mmorett 13y ago
  In the absence of another more advance means of communicating with a computer, keyboards are all we have. Mice help, new touch screens help, but the big one (I think) could be voice. And I have no idea what Google Glass uses, but that's another potential example. With VIM, it's not that it's an editor, or old, but downright archaic. Folks just won't let go.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - x1024 13y ago
    Open source is only as old as its latest commit. https://code.google.com/p/vim/source/list https://code.google.com/p/vim/source/list Which, in this case, seems to be 5 hours.
    - fmoralesc 13y ago
      Also, one of the last commits (patch 924) is a HUGE deal for someone like me who has written plugins in python (global, window and buffer-level options can be now set using vim's python API). Let's hope mappings come next!
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - pekk 13y ago
    It's fine for you to use whatever tools you want, even if they are under-powered toys. But qualitative hand-waving like 'archaic' shouldn't be confused with an objective disadvantage.
    - mmorett 13y ago
      http://delvarworld.github.io/blog/2013/03/16/just-use-sublime-text/ http://delvarworld.github.io/blog/2013/03/16/just-use-sublim... I would love to take credit for having read that prior to using the word archaic. I didn't. I formed my own opinion. I just happened to find that blog post a few minutes ago while searching on Sublime Text 2. The fact that he expresses my thoughts much more elegantly than me fills me with envy. But he's correct.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - erifneerg 13y ago
        Did you miss the part where he says over and over how he uses vim? Did you read the replies on reddit where this was originally posted to where there are rebuttal to the author's claims? http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/1aq1lx/just_use_sublime_text/ http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/1aq1lx/just_use_sublime... http://vpaste.net/fA7rH http://vpaste.net/fA7rH Vim is a text editor and that's it. If you want it do be an IDE you're going to have a bad time. I'd recommend this piece on Unix as IDE http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/ http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - eliasmacpherson 13y ago
    Further to the point made about vim being a text manipulation language - it's very well defined. Voice control is a more advanced means of communicating with a computer, keyboards are not all we have anymore. What you're saying is contradicted by what's demonstrated right here. Voice works right now with vim's text manipulation language, have a look at the vim golf example. This ancient technology could be used to make voice editing a reality for people who would rather learn 'delete five lines' than "5dd". I haven't yet seen another editor that would allow code be manipulated this was with voice controls, besides emacs. It's a testament to the configurability and extensibility of vim that it can stay current in this manner. VimGolf is basically a challenge to make certain edits with as few vim commands as possible. Unless I am mistaken, google glass uses the android voice recognition software.
barbs 13y ago
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them. and Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downmod you. Somehow, I don't think your being downvoted was a result of your non-constructive "criticism".

pekk 13y ago

The difference between this and kerosene is that there are real reasons to use electricity rather than kerosene, whereas the only reason you have not to use emacs or vim is some kind of personal preference, not the lack of some modern text editing technology.

terhechte 13y ago

You got downvoted because you criticize something which you obviously have no clue of. The reason why vim, in its various incarnations, is still being used is because vim is not an editor, vim is a highly powerful text manipulation language. The main implementation of said language being Vim, with implementations for lots of other editors (Sublime, Xcode, Eclipse, even Emacs). If I'd find a better text manipulation language than vim, I'd switch in a heartbeat. I've yet to find one.

mmorett 13y ago
Please. vim is an editor. Whether vim is a language, which has an implementation known as vim which is an editor, is irrelevant. I referred to the implementation. And it was clear I was referring to the editor. You might wanna correct Wikipedia and tons of other sources that all refer to vim the editor. Cuz they are all wrong, per your definition.
- terhechte 13y ago
  Yes, and no. I was referring to your criticism that people still use it. See, people do not use it because it is vim, the editor, but because it is vim, the text manipulation language. Really. There's nothing great about the editor itself, it is rather clunky, lacks solid UI abstractions, blocks the UI while it is busy doing something, has an awful scripting language (vim script), and more. If you take away the text manipulation language, nobody would use it. Another point validating that is that people write vim-layers for all kinds of editors and IDEs. They don't port the editor (i.e. the weird UI blocking, or the text mode, or the other things or even vim script), they port the text manipulation language. Coming back to what I originally said: You seem to not get vim, and how it allows to easily modify text with a manipulation language (not a programming language!). Say I'm at the beginning of a line: #[exampleObject: obj displayTitle: @"this is the title"]; [delegateDoSomethingWith: @"this is the title"]; Say I want to take the 'this is the title', and change the contents to 'new title. In the vim-language, that's the following code (cursor pos is the #): /@"<CR>2lci"new title<ESC>n2l. or Vj:s/this is the title/new title/<CR> This is a simple example, but for moving around text and manipulating it (i.e. everything after you wrote the initial code / function class / whatever) it is beyond fantastic. What's not so good, as outlined above, is vim the editor, simply because it is old and doesn't have a more modern UI, etc. There're many projects that tried to address this, but everyone, so far, failed to implement the text manipulation language as deeply as in the reference implementation vim. What comes close is evil for emacs.