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No, thank you. I know abused kids are a serious issue, but the vast majority of kids aren't abused, and this is a disturbing ad to show specifically to a kid, e

No, thank you. I know abused kids are a serious issue, but the vast majority of kids aren't abused, and this is a disturbing ad to show specifically to a kid, especially when the grown-up with them doesn't see it. I'm picturing walking past this billboard with my kid and having him ask "Daddy, why does that kid look all beat up" and answering "no, that kid looks perfectly normal, you're making it up". Nice. There are far better ways to have a very high-quality 2-way covert channel to any kid old enough to read an ad and act on the information here, namely: school. Many teachers are extremely pro-active about figuring out signs of abuse. My mother was a teacher and intervened decisively and successfully in a serious ongoing physical abuse situation once. Plus, the idea that you might care about kids at school and find out what's up with them is a good precedent that can lead to a lot of other nice related things even when there isn't abuse. On the other hand, lenticular ads that show different things to adults and kids is not a good precedent, whether it's used to show grosser ads to grownups than we currently have to see already ("hey, the kids can't see this") or to covertly market to kids.

nness 13y ago
Really, what is wrong with providing more than one way to reach out to abused children?
- kevinpet 13y ago
  As the parent points out, what's potentially wrong with this method is the absence of cost benefit-analysis based on what value this will provide vs. any negative effects this will have (in addition to the actual cost). Your argument is an instance of "we should do something; this is something; therefor we should do it."
  - yen223 13y ago
    On the other hand, the parent's argument is the classic "Some random edge case might happen, therefore it's not worth doing X" argument. You're right, the absence of an actual cost-benefit analysis makes this debate somewhat pointless.
  - beedogs 13y ago
    Really? Now we're to look at child abuse prevention from a cost/benefit perspective, not a psychological or sociological one. Sad.
    - hawkw 13y ago
      Why is it wrong to look at the issue from a cost/benefit perspective? If an expenditure of resources isn't very effective at preventing child abuse, shouldn't those resources be deployed in a different way so we can prevent as much abuse as possible? What's sad about that?
      - sliverstorm 13y ago
        but Think of the Children!
    - philh 13y ago
      Benefits include things like "fewer children getting abused". Costs include things like "children in formative years being told that a beat up child looks perfectly normal". (And, as hawkw mentioned, "opportunity cost of not being able to implement other strategies".)
    - sukuriant 13y ago
      "Think of the children!" is a potentially dangerous slippery slope argument that, on Hacker News, we often deride because of where it can go, where no logic and only emotions are thrown into the mix. It just so happens that, in this case, you're actually affected by the argument being presented. Child abuse is an absolutely terrible thing, and we should work to stop it, and work to get those children that are being abused a way to be protected, and so on; but the question that others here are asking is "is this the right way to do it? Will this attempt do more harm than good?" and that's a good question to ask. If 5 year olds everywhere are taught that black eyes are not potential signs for abuse, then Billy down the street might get missed, because mom didn't see the what the child said, when the kid, seeing the billboard, asked why "why is that kid hurt?"
  - taurath 13y ago
    Maybe the people that put the ad up did the analysis?
hashmymustache 13y ago
Agreed. You want kids to see this and not adults? then give them a freaking flyer at school or actually address it in class by giving them opportunities to come forward and hire proper guidance counselers who know their way around this psychological minefield.
sukuriant 13y ago
> I'm picturing walking past this billboard with my kid and having him ask "Daddy, why does that kid look all beat up" and answering "no, that kid looks perfectly normal, you're making it up". Nice. Wow. I hadn't thought of that at all. That is absolutely terrible. Maybe there should be a disclaimer on the ad for the kid about how parents and kids see 2 different things on the billboard? And yeah, good teachers will take note of that and take care of it; though it can make for some really rough beginnings: "Hey, Jacob, why are you wearing make-up?" the teacher inquires, noticing that there's a really bad makeup job on one of her male student's faces, around their eye. "Eh, it's nothing, I just thought it'd be fun, to!" the kid nervously responds regarding.
- Falling3 13y ago
  I think the disclaimer would defeat the whole purpose of the ad.
  - artursapek 13y ago
    And it would be hard to explain with any brevity.
  - jonmrodriguez 13y ago
    Haha, I think he means a disclaimer only on the kid's side.
    - Falling3 13y ago
      Probably, but as artursapek pointed out that would likely be difficult to convey.
  - pixelcort 13y ago
    No, no, disclaimer at the kid's perspective, not the adult's.
- vacri 13y ago
  Lenticular displays look a bit funny to begin with. If someone draws your attention to it, you'll notice something's up, then start moving your head around to figure it out. It's not like this would cause a traumatic misunderstanding between child and parent.
afterburner 13y ago
Oh, I didn't realize the bruises and blood were also only on the lower view. Well, that's a little creepy.
hatfieej 13y ago
I would hope that most teachers are proactive about this. But I can tell you from working with some of the poorer schools, it can be a different world that what you are used to. Some teachers seemed to be apathetic and not very concerned about the students. I wouldn't trust that these schools could be left with taking care of the problem. Hopefully, I'm mistaken.
- japhyr 13y ago
  You are not mistaken at all. Schools are one part of a system that should identify and help abused children, but schools can not be the only safety net for children.
mattdeboard 13y ago
> "Daddy, why does that kid look all beat up" An abused child would never, ever ask that question. Ever.
- Millennium 13y ago
  No, but that's not the only problematic scenario. A child who isn't being abused might still see the signs in one of their friends, and you'd want them to speak up about it. Talks like the one mentioned in the grandparent post discourage that.
- onan_barbarian 13y ago
  Erm, this was something I was picturing my (not abused, in case it needs to be stated) younger son asking him upon seeing this, so I'm not sure what your point might be in connection to what I wrote.
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    I think you are overreacting a bit. I'd just tell my kid that the kid on the ad had an accident. There are much worse things your kid probably sees daily just by turning on the TV.
    - lprubin 13y ago
      The scenario here is that your kid sees the injured child and you see a healthy child. You don't see the injuries to think up the lie that the kid had an accident.
      - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
        Now I have much more sympathy for your point view. However, I still claim that "There are much worse things your kid probably sees daily just by turning on the TV."
  - mattdeboard 13y ago
    If your first reaction is to call your kid a liar when he asks you a question you don't understand you have more pressing concerns than lenticular billboards.
rdtsc 13y ago
> I'm picturing walking past this billboard with my kid and having him ask "Daddy, why does that kid look all beat up" and answering "no, that kid looks perfectly normal, you're making it up". Nice. Wow, good observation. I hope those companies that market toys and other crap for children don't start adopting this.
nitrogen 13y ago
I'm picturing walking past this billboard with my kid and having him ask "Daddy, why does that kid look all beat up" and answering "no, that kid looks perfectly normal, you're making it up". Nice. Is telling a kid they're making something up without investigating the best way to instill confidence?
goblin89 13y ago
> I'm picturing walking past this billboard with my kid and having him ask "Daddy, why does that kid look all beat up" and answering "no, that kid looks perfectly normal, you're making it up". Nice. I'm picturing that in such a peculiar case the parent would bend to level their head with the child's.
btilly 13y ago
I am sad that this is the top comment. Estimates vary, but something likely over 10% of the population has been abused. That's a lot. That's a lot of kids that are going through schools and being missed right now. It is wonderful that your mother caught one, but she missed dozens more. That's not an effective approach. Doubly so when kids tend to think that schools work hand in hand with parents. Your expectation is that anything you tell the school, goes home. Even if they say it won't. Adults lie. Abused kids don't have a lot of trust. Anonymity makes a big difference. Also there are worse things in the world than having to have that discussion with your kid. Like not wanting to stay home when you're sick because you're afraid that you'll wind up with a sore ass from your mother's boyfriend. What? You think that is an unfair thing for me to say? Well I've got worse for you. I don't have to imagine that - I just have to remember. If a billboard like this helps one kid like I was, and disturbs a hundred like yours, that's a worthwhile tradeoff in my books. Before leaping to disagree, stop and think about the fact that the typical estimate is that equivalent experiences are the reality of childhood for 20% of women and 5% of men. That's a lot of kids. It is wonderful that your kids get better. But far too many don't. And no, schools are not an effective answer to this problem. Ideas like this one might not be either, but it is worth trying them so that we can see how well they work. Because until you try them, you can't find out if they might.
- Orva 13y ago
  > Doubly so when kids tend to think that schools work hand in hand with parents. Your expectation is that anything you tell the school, goes home. Even if they say it won't. Adults lie. Abused kids don't have a lot of trust. Anonymity makes a big difference. And lets not forget about shame. Even adults have problem talking about abuse to someone they know because of stigma, for kids this is even worse. There is stigma with added fear of physical punishment far worse what has happened so far.. Anonymity indeed makes BIG difference: most likely it is difference between getting help at all or not. I find it ridiculous that some consider this kind of picture "disturbing to their children" when they don't probably even blink when passing even more brutal/disturbing movie ad or when they let their kids watch those movies.
- faboo 13y ago
  > Also there are worse things in the world than having to have that discussion with your kid. The rest of your post is totally valid, but I think the above is a big take-away for those of us who don't abuse our kids. Parenting is in large part discussion, and some of the more important discussions are about uncomfortable things.
vacri 13y ago
Many teachers are extremely pro-active about figuring out signs of abuse. 'Many' is quite the weasel-word to use in this context.
- JackFr 13y ago
  In the US at least, teachers are mandated reporters and can be held ciminally and civilly liable for ignoring signs of abuse or neglect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandated_reporter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandated_reporter
  - bestes 13y ago
    Just what we need: more laws to invade privacy. So much for trusting teachers.
  - vacri 13y ago
    There are laws here against jaywalking and the police frequently focus on it, but I wouldn't say "many pedestrians are extremely pro-active about avoiding jaywalking" because of those laws.
sigkill 13y ago
>There are far better ways to have a very high-quality 2-way covert channel You said school. Can you name a few more?
- jlgreco 13y ago
  How about on cereal boxes, or in comic books. How many parents read all of the stuff in/on those?
- pvaldes 13y ago
  This advertissement is for adults in my opinion, and more specifically for to move the adult donnors. Not more, not less. Is very ineffective, and probably very expensive also. You are not reaching the childrens living in the country, nor the childrens locked at home, or at the boarding schools, neither the babies/very small childrens that can not read still, nor the alienated that don't even notice that they are abused or that think that they "merit to be slapped" because they are... "too bad, too silly, too stupid"... people are very good lying to ourselves And even if you reach a desired target they probably don't call you, a perfect stranger. An abused child is frequently intensively surveilled, most of the time they are keep in a controlled environment, at home or in a small group of related people. Rarely could access freely to a public telephone and I bet that this boy or girl will avoid carefully (fear, shame...) to look directly to the advertissement shown for a few weeks in a random street of a big city. > You said school. Can you name a few more? School is basic, as health services, you can also add libraries, and TV. In Spain an abused child goes to an hospital sooner or later, and some injuries are very dificult to hide or fake to a professional. A physician can take a discrete look under the shirt of a child and he/she knows what to search for. Later they can send a silent alert to the appropriate channels if this is suspicious or simply call the police if there is some gross evidence. If you want to tell a telephone number to the children, simply assure that this number is a the school, in a poster at the hall. Pretty simple, safe and cheap also. If you want to be really twisted, put this number in some selected books in the school's library with an inked rubber stamp. Ask the teachers to spoke about it in a delicate and sensitive way. They can provide a better, more focused and controlled message in a safe environment. A poster in a solitary street with this aggressor can' have the same benefits and could even put him/her at risk. The adult could even beat him, menace or manipulate him distorting the message in unpredictable ways If you want to reach a target not in education you could use the TV channels for childrens. When we are trying to sell a toy, a film or a burguer to a child there is not a safe place where the parents can hide. You can also introduce this theme in programs like sesame street, in a subtile way and with an apropriately, positive and carefully expressed message.
johnnyn 13y ago
Give me a break. My kids see things I don't see all the time. At the playground, in the car, everywhere. I don't dismiss what they say and I have them tell me about it. If I'm in a hurry, I simply agree with them and move on.
whaevr 13y ago
>"Daddy, why does that kid look all beat up" Im pretty sure its explained in the ad: "If someone hurts you, phone us" I agree it could cause some confusion but how many kids are going to ask their parents after reading the ad? We obviously can't know for sure but I feel like the ad conveys enough information to the point that "this kid was hurt by someone, if this is happening to you call us, we can help"
- run4yourlives 13y ago
  Because after all, all kids can read.
  - whaevr 13y ago
    then the point of having the hotline number is voided then aswell.

nness 13y ago

Really, what is wrong with providing more than one way to reach out to abused children?

kevinpet 13y ago
As the parent points out, what's potentially wrong with this method is the absence of cost benefit-analysis based on what value this will provide vs. any negative effects this will have (in addition to the actual cost). Your argument is an instance of "we should do something; this is something; therefor we should do it."
- yen223 13y ago
  On the other hand, the parent's argument is the classic "Some random edge case might happen, therefore it's not worth doing X" argument. You're right, the absence of an actual cost-benefit analysis makes this debate somewhat pointless.
- beedogs 13y ago
  Really? Now we're to look at child abuse prevention from a cost/benefit perspective, not a psychological or sociological one. Sad.
  - hawkw 13y ago
    Why is it wrong to look at the issue from a cost/benefit perspective? If an expenditure of resources isn't very effective at preventing child abuse, shouldn't those resources be deployed in a different way so we can prevent as much abuse as possible? What's sad about that?
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      but Think of the Children!
  - philh 13y ago
    Benefits include things like "fewer children getting abused". Costs include things like "children in formative years being told that a beat up child looks perfectly normal". (And, as hawkw mentioned, "opportunity cost of not being able to implement other strategies".)
  - sukuriant 13y ago
    "Think of the children!" is a potentially dangerous slippery slope argument that, on Hacker News, we often deride because of where it can go, where no logic and only emotions are thrown into the mix. It just so happens that, in this case, you're actually affected by the argument being presented. Child abuse is an absolutely terrible thing, and we should work to stop it, and work to get those children that are being abused a way to be protected, and so on; but the question that others here are asking is "is this the right way to do it? Will this attempt do more harm than good?" and that's a good question to ask. If 5 year olds everywhere are taught that black eyes are not potential signs for abuse, then Billy down the street might get missed, because mom didn't see the what the child said, when the kid, seeing the billboard, asked why "why is that kid hurt?"
- taurath 13y ago
  Maybe the people that put the ad up did the analysis?

hashmymustache 13y ago

Agreed. You want kids to see this and not adults? then give them a freaking flyer at school or actually address it in class by giving them opportunities to come forward and hire proper guidance counselers who know their way around this psychological minefield.

sukuriant 13y ago

> I'm picturing walking past this billboard with my kid and having him ask "Daddy, why does that kid look all beat up" and answering "no, that kid looks perfectly normal, you're making it up". Nice. Wow. I hadn't thought of that at all. That is absolutely terrible. Maybe there should be a disclaimer on the ad for the kid about how parents and kids see 2 different things on the billboard? And yeah, good teachers will take note of that and take care of it; though it can make for some really rough beginnings: "Hey, Jacob, why are you wearing make-up?" the teacher inquires, noticing that there's a really bad makeup job on one of her male student's faces, around their eye. "Eh, it's nothing, I just thought it'd be fun, to!" the kid nervously responds regarding.

Falling3 13y ago
I think the disclaimer would defeat the whole purpose of the ad.
- artursapek 13y ago
  And it would be hard to explain with any brevity.
- jonmrodriguez 13y ago
  Haha, I think he means a disclaimer only on the kid's side.
  - Falling3 13y ago
    Probably, but as artursapek pointed out that would likely be difficult to convey.
- pixelcort 13y ago
  No, no, disclaimer at the kid's perspective, not the adult's.
vacri 13y ago
Lenticular displays look a bit funny to begin with. If someone draws your attention to it, you'll notice something's up, then start moving your head around to figure it out. It's not like this would cause a traumatic misunderstanding between child and parent.

afterburner 13y ago

Oh, I didn't realize the bruises and blood were also only on the lower view. Well, that's a little creepy.

hatfieej 13y ago

I would hope that most teachers are proactive about this. But I can tell you from working with some of the poorer schools, it can be a different world that what you are used to. Some teachers seemed to be apathetic and not very concerned about the students. I wouldn't trust that these schools could be left with taking care of the problem. Hopefully, I'm mistaken.

japhyr 13y ago
You are not mistaken at all. Schools are one part of a system that should identify and help abused children, but schools can not be the only safety net for children.

mattdeboard 13y ago

> "Daddy, why does that kid look all beat up" An abused child would never, ever ask that question. Ever.

Millennium 13y ago
No, but that's not the only problematic scenario. A child who isn't being abused might still see the signs in one of their friends, and you'd want them to speak up about it. Talks like the one mentioned in the grandparent post discourage that.
onan_barbarian 13y ago
Erm, this was something I was picturing my (not abused, in case it needs to be stated) younger son asking him upon seeing this, so I'm not sure what your point might be in connection to what I wrote.
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
  I think you are overreacting a bit. I'd just tell my kid that the kid on the ad had an accident. There are much worse things your kid probably sees daily just by turning on the TV.
  - lprubin 13y ago
    The scenario here is that your kid sees the injured child and you see a healthy child. You don't see the injuries to think up the lie that the kid had an accident.
    - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
      Now I have much more sympathy for your point view. However, I still claim that "There are much worse things your kid probably sees daily just by turning on the TV."
- mattdeboard 13y ago
  If your first reaction is to call your kid a liar when he asks you a question you don't understand you have more pressing concerns than lenticular billboards.

rdtsc 13y ago

nitrogen 13y ago

I'm picturing walking past this billboard with my kid and having him ask "Daddy, why does that kid look all beat up" and answering "no, that kid looks perfectly normal, you're making it up". Nice. Is telling a kid they're making something up without investigating the best way to instill confidence?

goblin89 13y ago

btilly 13y ago

I am sad that this is the top comment. Estimates vary, but something likely over 10% of the population has been abused. That's a lot. That's a lot of kids that are going through schools and being missed right now. It is wonderful that your mother caught one, but she missed dozens more. That's not an effective approach. Doubly so when kids tend to think that schools work hand in hand with parents. Your expectation is that anything you tell the school, goes home. Even if they say it won't. Adults lie. Abused kids don't have a lot of trust. Anonymity makes a big difference. Also there are worse things in the world than having to have that discussion with your kid. Like not wanting to stay home when you're sick because you're afraid that you'll wind up with a sore ass from your mother's boyfriend. What? You think that is an unfair thing for me to say? Well I've got worse for you. I don't have to imagine that - I just have to remember. If a billboard like this helps one kid like I was, and disturbs a hundred like yours, that's a worthwhile tradeoff in my books. Before leaping to disagree, stop and think about the fact that the typical estimate is that equivalent experiences are the reality of childhood for 20% of women and 5% of men. That's a lot of kids. It is wonderful that your kids get better. But far too many don't. And no, schools are not an effective answer to this problem. Ideas like this one might not be either, but it is worth trying them so that we can see how well they work. Because until you try them, you can't find out if they might.

Orva 13y ago
> Doubly so when kids tend to think that schools work hand in hand with parents. Your expectation is that anything you tell the school, goes home. Even if they say it won't. Adults lie. Abused kids don't have a lot of trust. Anonymity makes a big difference. And lets not forget about shame. Even adults have problem talking about abuse to someone they know because of stigma, for kids this is even worse. There is stigma with added fear of physical punishment far worse what has happened so far.. Anonymity indeed makes BIG difference: most likely it is difference between getting help at all or not. I find it ridiculous that some consider this kind of picture "disturbing to their children" when they don't probably even blink when passing even more brutal/disturbing movie ad or when they let their kids watch those movies.
faboo 13y ago
> Also there are worse things in the world than having to have that discussion with your kid. The rest of your post is totally valid, but I think the above is a big take-away for those of us who don't abuse our kids. Parenting is in large part discussion, and some of the more important discussions are about uncomfortable things.

vacri 13y ago

Many teachers are extremely pro-active about figuring out signs of abuse. 'Many' is quite the weasel-word to use in this context.

JackFr 13y ago
In the US at least, teachers are mandated reporters and can be held ciminally and civilly liable for ignoring signs of abuse or neglect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandated_reporter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandated_reporter
- bestes 13y ago
  Just what we need: more laws to invade privacy. So much for trusting teachers.
- vacri 13y ago
  There are laws here against jaywalking and the police frequently focus on it, but I wouldn't say "many pedestrians are extremely pro-active about avoiding jaywalking" because of those laws.

sigkill 13y ago

>There are far better ways to have a very high-quality 2-way covert channel You said school. Can you name a few more?

jlgreco 13y ago
How about on cereal boxes, or in comic books. How many parents read all of the stuff in/on those?
pvaldes 13y ago
This advertissement is for adults in my opinion, and more specifically for to move the adult donnors. Not more, not less. Is very ineffective, and probably very expensive also. You are not reaching the childrens living in the country, nor the childrens locked at home, or at the boarding schools, neither the babies/very small childrens that can not read still, nor the alienated that don't even notice that they are abused or that think that they "merit to be slapped" because they are... "too bad, too silly, too stupid"... people are very good lying to ourselves And even if you reach a desired target they probably don't call you, a perfect stranger. An abused child is frequently intensively surveilled, most of the time they are keep in a controlled environment, at home or in a small group of related people. Rarely could access freely to a public telephone and I bet that this boy or girl will avoid carefully (fear, shame...) to look directly to the advertissement shown for a few weeks in a random street of a big city. > You said school. Can you name a few more? School is basic, as health services, you can also add libraries, and TV. In Spain an abused child goes to an hospital sooner or later, and some injuries are very dificult to hide or fake to a professional. A physician can take a discrete look under the shirt of a child and he/she knows what to search for. Later they can send a silent alert to the appropriate channels if this is suspicious or simply call the police if there is some gross evidence. If you want to tell a telephone number to the children, simply assure that this number is a the school, in a poster at the hall. Pretty simple, safe and cheap also. If you want to be really twisted, put this number in some selected books in the school's library with an inked rubber stamp. Ask the teachers to spoke about it in a delicate and sensitive way. They can provide a better, more focused and controlled message in a safe environment. A poster in a solitary street with this aggressor can' have the same benefits and could even put him/her at risk. The adult could even beat him, menace or manipulate him distorting the message in unpredictable ways If you want to reach a target not in education you could use the TV channels for childrens. When we are trying to sell a toy, a film or a burguer to a child there is not a safe place where the parents can hide. You can also introduce this theme in programs like sesame street, in a subtile way and with an apropriately, positive and carefully expressed message.

johnnyn 13y ago

Give me a break. My kids see things I don't see all the time. At the playground, in the car, everywhere. I don't dismiss what they say and I have them tell me about it. If I'm in a hurry, I simply agree with them and move on.

whaevr 13y ago

>"Daddy, why does that kid look all beat up" Im pretty sure its explained in the ad: "If someone hurts you, phone us" I agree it could cause some confusion but how many kids are going to ask their parents after reading the ad? We obviously can't know for sure but I feel like the ad conveys enough information to the point that "this kid was hurt by someone, if this is happening to you call us, we can help"

run4yourlives 13y ago
Because after all, all kids can read.
- whaevr 13y ago
  then the point of having the hotline number is voided then aswell.