5 ms·

What does "efficient" mean? If it means the distance your fingers have to travel, Dvorak is way more efficient. Typing full time on Dvorak for the last 12 year

by cecilpl 13y ago

What does "efficient" mean? If it means the distance your fingers have to travel, Dvorak is way more efficient. Typing full time on Dvorak for the last 12 years has, I'm convinced, saved me some wrist and finger pain. Every time I'm forced to jump back onto qwerty for a co-worker or my wife's laptop, I hate it with a passion. It feels like I'm doing finger gymnastics the whole time, rather than actually typing.

thirsteh 13y ago
I do hear this a lot, and I have no comprehensive experience with Dvorak, but as far as I know there is no real support for the premise that Dvorak makes you type faster, at least. I'll buy that your fingers might not tire as easily.
- kanzure 13y ago
  Here's a study that tried to figure out other possibly optimal keyboard layouts (given lots of explicit assumptions): http://arcavia.com/kyle/Projects/ProgrammerKeyboard.html http://arcavia.com/kyle/Projects/ProgrammerKeyboard.html "This was a humongous waste of time. The program to do the analysis is about 700 lines of code, and went though about 3 iterations. I am most disappointed by the lack of benefit offered by a more efficient layout; even when considering a purely optimized layout you only get 21% savings over Qwerty." Of course, there are other ways we could change keyboards. For example, accepting even more data from your digits could be a useful avenue to explore. 20% improvements are not that spectacular, maybe there's a contraption that is conceptually like a keyboard but is 10x faster (so 12 cps -> 120 cps?). Alternatively, plover. but then custom dictionaries and bleh..
bad_user 13y ago
Are you sure it was Dvorak that saved you the wrist pain? Also, every time you have to type on Qwerty, maybe it feels like doing finger gymnastic because your fingers aren't used to it? For what is worth I've been finger typing on Qwerty for the last 11 years and I've never had wrist pain. My average is about 90 WPM when doing relaxed typing and over 120 when I stretch myself, and I never felt the need for going faster. My main problem with Dvorak, that often goes unmentioned: it saves you finger stretches ONLY if you're typing English words, being optimized for English and my native language isn't English. The keyboard for my native language is still Qwerty. The Dvorak-equivalent on the other hand is completely different from normal Dvorak. Maybe Qwerty needs a replacement, but Dvorak ain't it.
- jjoonathan 13y ago
  The distinction between Dvorak and QWERTY when it comes to wrist movements isn't remotely subtle. "This is a test sentence" leaves the home row once on Dvorak and 13 times on QWERTY. That doesn't strike me as atypical. The "flow" of Dvorak is so noticeable that certain words become slightly annoying to type. If we could somehow chart the motion of tendons through your wrist I'm sure I could convince you that the difference is like night and day. > For what is worth I've been finger typing on Qwerty for the last 11 years and I've never had wrist pain. My average is about 90 WPM when doing relaxed typing and over 120 when I stretch myself, and I never felt the need for going faster. It's not about the speed (well, I was a hunt-and-peck typist on QWERTY and I switched in order to break the habit, so it was about the speed, just not in that way). It's nice that you don't have any wrist pain, but are you sure that will always be the case? Even a little tiny bit is enough to put me off writing code and both of us will due the bulk of our typing in the future. > Maybe Qwerty needs a replacement, but Dvorak ain't it. I agree, but only because the barrier to learning Dvorak is rather large and would apply to any Qwerty replacement. It took concentrated effort over the course of months just in order to reach my speed on QWERTY and I'm not sure it was worth as much effort as it took. Still, I'm fairly certain that if you could snap your fingers and use Dvorak/Colemack/Whatever you would.
  - jseliger 13y ago
    The distinction between Dvorak and QWERTY when it comes to wrist movements isn't remotely subtle. I wonder about the extent to which this is due to the keyboard layout itself. For example, I've been using Kinesis Advantage keyboard for the last couple years (http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on-the-kinesis-advantage-unicomp-space-saver-and-das-keyboard%E2%80%94two-years-later/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on... for some of my thoughts on it) and find very little wrist movement when using it. The Advantage is ludicrously expensive for a keyboard, but I also often use it for 40 or more hours per week, and, unlike many default keyboards, its keys don't become sticky or break after a year or two.
rdw 13y ago
I know a few people who have switched to Dvorak, and every time I see them using a computer they seem to grapple with one of a few new inefficiencies that stem from using a layout other than the standard: * Having difficulty finding symbols because the keycaps no longer match (I don't know why they don't memorize them after all these years) * Not knowing what mode the keyboard is in to type one's password. * Having to use someone else's machine and being startled by the switch, or someone uses their keyboard and switches it back. * On Windows, in particular, the settings seem to flicker back and forth between Qwerty and Dvorak between programs, and between invocations of the same program. No idea why it's not a global system setting. * Have to reset the keymappings in most video games. I suppose if you were a full-time typist these inefficiencies would be made up for by the increased comfort of the bulk of your day. But for everyone else -- who spend less than 10% of the time typing English sentences -- the standard is probably easier overall.
- blowski 13y ago
  I tried switching to Dvorak, and encountered exactly those problems. Perhaps if every keyboard instantly switched to Dvorak layout the moment I touched it, then it might have been worth it. Having to think about which keyboard layout I was using added more time and stress than was ever going to be repaid by the supposed benefits of using Dvorak. I gave up after about 3 months, reverting purely to using Qwerty.
- jliechti1 13y ago
  As a Dvorak (and primarily Mac) user, the switching back and forth on Windows is really annoying for me. I always assumed there must be some system setting that would allow you to switch it for everything. However, this can be pretty easily mitigated by setting a shortcut to change the keyboard layout (usually CTRL+Space on Windows or CMD+Space on Mac). This way if someone uses my computer I quickly change my keyboard setting in less than a second. No inefficiencies. In addition, I find myself frequently using a shortcut like this when I need to change back and forth between typing English and Chinese (Dvorak feels very naturally for typing with Hanyu Pinyin - a method of typing Chinese using the Roman Alphabet, so it's not just good for English sentences). > I suppose if you were a full-time typist these inefficiencies would be made up for by the increased comfort of the bulk of your day. Lastly, I can verify this on a personal level. I can type 80+ WPM on either QWERTY or DVORAK, but DVORAK is way more comfortable to type on. Would I recommend everyone switch? No. But, I find it to be worth it.
laureny 13y ago
> What does "efficient" mean? If it means the distance your fingers have to travel, Dvorak is way more efficient. When you talk about efficiency, you need to be more specific. It's not just that Dvorak's superiority over Qwerty for regular typing is very far from being clearly established, Dvorak is terrible for writing code, which requires a lot of non-alphabetical symbols such as {}, (), [], etc...
- beatgammit 13y ago
  Dvorak is not terrible for writing code. I don't find it difficult at all. Parens are in the same place as on Qwerty, [] and /= have basically switched places (they're both about equally common), and the only real complaint I have is that ls -l abuses my pinky. I do not find myself hampered at all when writing code in Dvorak. If anything, it's better since 90% or so of what you write is identifiers, which are basically just short English phrases. Sure, it's possible to make a more optimized keyboard layout for writing code for a specific lannguage, but I find it to be great all-around. I'm a little sad about where : is (ViM uses it extensively, Go uses it pretty frequently), but alternating hands completely makes up for it (e.g. how often have you typed minimum in code; that by itself can cause RSI in Qwerty).
- jerf 13y ago
  I once did a scan over our entire code base for []{} vs /=?+, and it came out so close to even as to make no difference. Depending on your language mix, your mileage will vary, but this argument has less general power than people suppose. Dvorak is not terrible for writing code. This is to a large degree because none of /=?+[]{} are in the home row under any layout anyhow. You do lose semicolon under your pinky, but how many QWERTY users are truly touch typing anyhow?
spc476 13y ago
I use an IBM Modem M keyboard (both at home and at work; I have a stack of spares just in case) and I haven't had a problem with RSI. Oddly enough, I find non IBM Model M keyboards a pain to type on, both in annoyance and physical pain. Perhaps there's another dimension not being measured---the physical feel of the keyboard.

by cecilpl 13y ago

thirsteh 13y ago

I do hear this a lot, and I have no comprehensive experience with Dvorak, but as far as I know there is no real support for the premise that Dvorak makes you type faster, at least. I'll buy that your fingers might not tire as easily.

kanzure 13y ago
Here's a study that tried to figure out other possibly optimal keyboard layouts (given lots of explicit assumptions): http://arcavia.com/kyle/Projects/ProgrammerKeyboard.html http://arcavia.com/kyle/Projects/ProgrammerKeyboard.html "This was a humongous waste of time. The program to do the analysis is about 700 lines of code, and went though about 3 iterations. I am most disappointed by the lack of benefit offered by a more efficient layout; even when considering a purely optimized layout you only get 21% savings over Qwerty." Of course, there are other ways we could change keyboards. For example, accepting even more data from your digits could be a useful avenue to explore. 20% improvements are not that spectacular, maybe there's a contraption that is conceptually like a keyboard but is 10x faster (so 12 cps -> 120 cps?). Alternatively, plover. but then custom dictionaries and bleh..

bad_user 13y ago

Are you sure it was Dvorak that saved you the wrist pain? Also, every time you have to type on Qwerty, maybe it feels like doing finger gymnastic because your fingers aren't used to it? For what is worth I've been finger typing on Qwerty for the last 11 years and I've never had wrist pain. My average is about 90 WPM when doing relaxed typing and over 120 when I stretch myself, and I never felt the need for going faster. My main problem with Dvorak, that often goes unmentioned: it saves you finger stretches ONLY if you're typing English words, being optimized for English and my native language isn't English. The keyboard for my native language is still Qwerty. The Dvorak-equivalent on the other hand is completely different from normal Dvorak. Maybe Qwerty needs a replacement, but Dvorak ain't it.

jjoonathan 13y ago
The distinction between Dvorak and QWERTY when it comes to wrist movements isn't remotely subtle. "This is a test sentence" leaves the home row once on Dvorak and 13 times on QWERTY. That doesn't strike me as atypical. The "flow" of Dvorak is so noticeable that certain words become slightly annoying to type. If we could somehow chart the motion of tendons through your wrist I'm sure I could convince you that the difference is like night and day. > For what is worth I've been finger typing on Qwerty for the last 11 years and I've never had wrist pain. My average is about 90 WPM when doing relaxed typing and over 120 when I stretch myself, and I never felt the need for going faster. It's not about the speed (well, I was a hunt-and-peck typist on QWERTY and I switched in order to break the habit, so it was about the speed, just not in that way). It's nice that you don't have any wrist pain, but are you sure that will always be the case? Even a little tiny bit is enough to put me off writing code and both of us will due the bulk of our typing in the future. > Maybe Qwerty needs a replacement, but Dvorak ain't it. I agree, but only because the barrier to learning Dvorak is rather large and would apply to any Qwerty replacement. It took concentrated effort over the course of months just in order to reach my speed on QWERTY and I'm not sure it was worth as much effort as it took. Still, I'm fairly certain that if you could snap your fingers and use Dvorak/Colemack/Whatever you would.
- jseliger 13y ago
  The distinction between Dvorak and QWERTY when it comes to wrist movements isn't remotely subtle. I wonder about the extent to which this is due to the keyboard layout itself. For example, I've been using Kinesis Advantage keyboard for the last couple years (http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on-the-kinesis-advantage-unicomp-space-saver-and-das-keyboard%E2%80%94two-years-later/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on... for some of my thoughts on it) and find very little wrist movement when using it. The Advantage is ludicrously expensive for a keyboard, but I also often use it for 40 or more hours per week, and, unlike many default keyboards, its keys don't become sticky or break after a year or two.

rdw 13y ago

I know a few people who have switched to Dvorak, and every time I see them using a computer they seem to grapple with one of a few new inefficiencies that stem from using a layout other than the standard: * Having difficulty finding symbols because the keycaps no longer match (I don't know why they don't memorize them after all these years) * Not knowing what mode the keyboard is in to type one's password. * Having to use someone else's machine and being startled by the switch, or someone uses their keyboard and switches it back. * On Windows, in particular, the settings seem to flicker back and forth between Qwerty and Dvorak between programs, and between invocations of the same program. No idea why it's not a global system setting. * Have to reset the keymappings in most video games. I suppose if you were a full-time typist these inefficiencies would be made up for by the increased comfort of the bulk of your day. But for everyone else -- who spend less than 10% of the time typing English sentences -- the standard is probably easier overall.

blowski 13y ago
I tried switching to Dvorak, and encountered exactly those problems. Perhaps if every keyboard instantly switched to Dvorak layout the moment I touched it, then it might have been worth it. Having to think about which keyboard layout I was using added more time and stress than was ever going to be repaid by the supposed benefits of using Dvorak. I gave up after about 3 months, reverting purely to using Qwerty.
jliechti1 13y ago
As a Dvorak (and primarily Mac) user, the switching back and forth on Windows is really annoying for me. I always assumed there must be some system setting that would allow you to switch it for everything. However, this can be pretty easily mitigated by setting a shortcut to change the keyboard layout (usually CTRL+Space on Windows or CMD+Space on Mac). This way if someone uses my computer I quickly change my keyboard setting in less than a second. No inefficiencies. In addition, I find myself frequently using a shortcut like this when I need to change back and forth between typing English and Chinese (Dvorak feels very naturally for typing with Hanyu Pinyin - a method of typing Chinese using the Roman Alphabet, so it's not just good for English sentences). > I suppose if you were a full-time typist these inefficiencies would be made up for by the increased comfort of the bulk of your day. Lastly, I can verify this on a personal level. I can type 80+ WPM on either QWERTY or DVORAK, but DVORAK is way more comfortable to type on. Would I recommend everyone switch? No. But, I find it to be worth it.

laureny 13y ago

> What does "efficient" mean? If it means the distance your fingers have to travel, Dvorak is way more efficient. When you talk about efficiency, you need to be more specific. It's not just that Dvorak's superiority over Qwerty for regular typing is very far from being clearly established, Dvorak is terrible for writing code, which requires a lot of non-alphabetical symbols such as {}, (), [], etc...

beatgammit 13y ago
Dvorak is not terrible for writing code. I don't find it difficult at all. Parens are in the same place as on Qwerty, [] and /= have basically switched places (they're both about equally common), and the only real complaint I have is that ls -l abuses my pinky. I do not find myself hampered at all when writing code in Dvorak. If anything, it's better since 90% or so of what you write is identifiers, which are basically just short English phrases. Sure, it's possible to make a more optimized keyboard layout for writing code for a specific lannguage, but I find it to be great all-around. I'm a little sad about where : is (ViM uses it extensively, Go uses it pretty frequently), but alternating hands completely makes up for it (e.g. how often have you typed minimum in code; that by itself can cause RSI in Qwerty).
jerf 13y ago
I once did a scan over our entire code base for []{} vs /=?+, and it came out so close to even as to make no difference. Depending on your language mix, your mileage will vary, but this argument has less general power than people suppose. Dvorak is not terrible for writing code. This is to a large degree because none of /=?+[]{} are in the home row under any layout anyhow. You do lose semicolon under your pinky, but how many QWERTY users are truly touch typing anyhow?

spc476 13y ago

I use an IBM Modem M keyboard (both at home and at work; I have a stack of spares just in case) and I haven't had a problem with RSI. Oddly enough, I find non IBM Model M keyboards a pain to type on, both in annoyance and physical pain. Perhaps there's another dimension not being measured---the physical feel of the keyboard.