6 ms·

The Story Behind the QWERTY Keyboard

57 points by epo 13y ago

thirsteh 13y ago
There's also apparently no real research which shows that Dvorak is actually a more efficient layout: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard#Controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard#Cont...
- cecilpl 13y ago
  What does "efficient" mean? If it means the distance your fingers have to travel, Dvorak is way more efficient. Typing full time on Dvorak for the last 12 years has, I'm convinced, saved me some wrist and finger pain. Every time I'm forced to jump back onto qwerty for a co-worker or my wife's laptop, I hate it with a passion. It feels like I'm doing finger gymnastics the whole time, rather than actually typing.
  - thirsteh 13y ago
    I do hear this a lot, and I have no comprehensive experience with Dvorak, but as far as I know there is no real support for the premise that Dvorak makes you type faster, at least. I'll buy that your fingers might not tire as easily.
    - kanzure 13y ago
      Here's a study that tried to figure out other possibly optimal keyboard layouts (given lots of explicit assumptions): http://arcavia.com/kyle/Projects/ProgrammerKeyboard.html http://arcavia.com/kyle/Projects/ProgrammerKeyboard.html "This was a humongous waste of time. The program to do the analysis is about 700 lines of code, and went though about 3 iterations. I am most disappointed by the lack of benefit offered by a more efficient layout; even when considering a purely optimized layout you only get 21% savings over Qwerty." Of course, there are other ways we could change keyboards. For example, accepting even more data from your digits could be a useful avenue to explore. 20% improvements are not that spectacular, maybe there's a contraption that is conceptually like a keyboard but is 10x faster (so 12 cps -> 120 cps?). Alternatively, plover. but then custom dictionaries and bleh..
  - bad_user 13y ago
    Are you sure it was Dvorak that saved you the wrist pain? Also, every time you have to type on Qwerty, maybe it feels like doing finger gymnastic because your fingers aren't used to it? For what is worth I've been finger typing on Qwerty for the last 11 years and I've never had wrist pain. My average is about 90 WPM when doing relaxed typing and over 120 when I stretch myself, and I never felt the need for going faster. My main problem with Dvorak, that often goes unmentioned: it saves you finger stretches ONLY if you're typing English words, being optimized for English and my native language isn't English. The keyboard for my native language is still Qwerty. The Dvorak-equivalent on the other hand is completely different from normal Dvorak. Maybe Qwerty needs a replacement, but Dvorak ain't it.
    - jjoonathan 13y ago
      The distinction between Dvorak and QWERTY when it comes to wrist movements isn't remotely subtle. "This is a test sentence" leaves the home row once on Dvorak and 13 times on QWERTY. That doesn't strike me as atypical. The "flow" of Dvorak is so noticeable that certain words become slightly annoying to type. If we could somehow chart the motion of tendons through your wrist I'm sure I could convince you that the difference is like night and day. > For what is worth I've been finger typing on Qwerty for the last 11 years and I've never had wrist pain. My average is about 90 WPM when doing relaxed typing and over 120 when I stretch myself, and I never felt the need for going faster. It's not about the speed (well, I was a hunt-and-peck typist on QWERTY and I switched in order to break the habit, so it was about the speed, just not in that way). It's nice that you don't have any wrist pain, but are you sure that will always be the case? Even a little tiny bit is enough to put me off writing code and both of us will due the bulk of our typing in the future. > Maybe Qwerty needs a replacement, but Dvorak ain't it. I agree, but only because the barrier to learning Dvorak is rather large and would apply to any Qwerty replacement. It took concentrated effort over the course of months just in order to reach my speed on QWERTY and I'm not sure it was worth as much effort as it took. Still, I'm fairly certain that if you could snap your fingers and use Dvorak/Colemack/Whatever you would.
      - jseliger 13y ago
        The distinction between Dvorak and QWERTY when it comes to wrist movements isn't remotely subtle. I wonder about the extent to which this is due to the keyboard layout itself. For example, I've been using Kinesis Advantage keyboard for the last couple years (http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on-the-kinesis-advantage-unicomp-space-saver-and-das-keyboard%E2%80%94two-years-later/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on... for some of my thoughts on it) and find very little wrist movement when using it. The Advantage is ludicrously expensive for a keyboard, but I also often use it for 40 or more hours per week, and, unlike many default keyboards, its keys don't become sticky or break after a year or two.
  - rdw 13y ago
    I know a few people who have switched to Dvorak, and every time I see them using a computer they seem to grapple with one of a few new inefficiencies that stem from using a layout other than the standard: * Having difficulty finding symbols because the keycaps no longer match (I don't know why they don't memorize them after all these years) * Not knowing what mode the keyboard is in to type one's password. * Having to use someone else's machine and being startled by the switch, or someone uses their keyboard and switches it back. * On Windows, in particular, the settings seem to flicker back and forth between Qwerty and Dvorak between programs, and between invocations of the same program. No idea why it's not a global system setting. * Have to reset the keymappings in most video games. I suppose if you were a full-time typist these inefficiencies would be made up for by the increased comfort of the bulk of your day. But for everyone else -- who spend less than 10% of the time typing English sentences -- the standard is probably easier overall.
    - blowski 13y ago
      I tried switching to Dvorak, and encountered exactly those problems. Perhaps if every keyboard instantly switched to Dvorak layout the moment I touched it, then it might have been worth it. Having to think about which keyboard layout I was using added more time and stress than was ever going to be repaid by the supposed benefits of using Dvorak. I gave up after about 3 months, reverting purely to using Qwerty.
    - jliechti1 13y ago
      As a Dvorak (and primarily Mac) user, the switching back and forth on Windows is really annoying for me. I always assumed there must be some system setting that would allow you to switch it for everything. However, this can be pretty easily mitigated by setting a shortcut to change the keyboard layout (usually CTRL+Space on Windows or CMD+Space on Mac). This way if someone uses my computer I quickly change my keyboard setting in less than a second. No inefficiencies. In addition, I find myself frequently using a shortcut like this when I need to change back and forth between typing English and Chinese (Dvorak feels very naturally for typing with Hanyu Pinyin - a method of typing Chinese using the Roman Alphabet, so it's not just good for English sentences). > I suppose if you were a full-time typist these inefficiencies would be made up for by the increased comfort of the bulk of your day. Lastly, I can verify this on a personal level. I can type 80+ WPM on either QWERTY or DVORAK, but DVORAK is way more comfortable to type on. Would I recommend everyone switch? No. But, I find it to be worth it.
  - laureny 13y ago
    > What does "efficient" mean? If it means the distance your fingers have to travel, Dvorak is way more efficient. When you talk about efficiency, you need to be more specific. It's not just that Dvorak's superiority over Qwerty for regular typing is very far from being clearly established, Dvorak is terrible for writing code, which requires a lot of non-alphabetical symbols such as {}, (), [], etc...
    - beatgammit 13y ago
      Dvorak is not terrible for writing code. I don't find it difficult at all. Parens are in the same place as on Qwerty, [] and /= have basically switched places (they're both about equally common), and the only real complaint I have is that ls -l abuses my pinky. I do not find myself hampered at all when writing code in Dvorak. If anything, it's better since 90% or so of what you write is identifiers, which are basically just short English phrases. Sure, it's possible to make a more optimized keyboard layout for writing code for a specific lannguage, but I find it to be great all-around. I'm a little sad about where : is (ViM uses it extensively, Go uses it pretty frequently), but alternating hands completely makes up for it (e.g. how often have you typed minimum in code; that by itself can cause RSI in Qwerty).
    - jerf 13y ago
      I once did a scan over our entire code base for []{} vs /=?+, and it came out so close to even as to make no difference. Depending on your language mix, your mileage will vary, but this argument has less general power than people suppose. Dvorak is not terrible for writing code. This is to a large degree because none of /=?+[]{} are in the home row under any layout anyhow. You do lose semicolon under your pinky, but how many QWERTY users are truly touch typing anyhow?
  - spc476 13y ago
    I use an IBM Modem M keyboard (both at home and at work; I have a stack of spares just in case) and I haven't had a problem with RSI. Oddly enough, I find non IBM Model M keyboards a pain to type on, both in annoyance and physical pain. Perhaps there's another dimension not being measured---the physical feel of the keyboard.
- starpilot 13y ago
  Apparently you need "real research" before claiming it's more efficient to put the vowels on the home row rather than scattering them everywhere. It's a good thing that semicolon is right there though, it's totally used more frequently than the letter E.
  - derleth 13y ago
    > Apparently you need "real research" before claiming it's more efficient to put the vowels on the home row rather than scattering them everywhere. Yes, you do, or how do you know you're not fooling yourself? Or do you believe in n-rays, too? http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~ken/Langmuir/langB.htm http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~ken/Langmuir/langB.htm
    - StavrosK 13y ago
      Skepticism is all fine and good, but I don't need to run extensive tests, theorize and test to see if the huge, brown, roaring animal in the woods is a bear. Sometimes, 90% probability is a good enough approximation to go with. Sure, you fool yourself 10% of the time, but you save a lot of time the other 90%. Based on this, I think we can preliminarily say that putting the "E" on the home row is probably a good idea.
      - thirsteh 13y ago
        Based on what?
      - snogglethorpe 13y ago
        Stephen Colbert coined a word to describe this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness
        StavrosK 13y ago
        The other end of the spectrum also has a name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis
- DanBC 13y ago
  Isn't Dvorak about comfort instead of speed? People trained to similar levels on dvorak or qwerty achieve similar speeds, but qwerty has higher levels of pain, RSI, carpal tunnel, etc? Of course, there are many reasons this could be true that have little to do with the actual layout.
- jcoder 13y ago
  If anyone is interested in comparing Colemak, Dvorak, and Qwerty for themselves, here's a small executable I wrote: https://github.com/bak/keyboard_battle https://github.com/bak/keyboard_battle. `gem install keyboard_battle`, then `keyboard_battle anytext.txt` or `keyboard_battle --bundled`. I believe it will work with Ruby 1.8, definitely on 1.9. It compares both alternation (more is better) and reach (less is better). The main flaw is that it only counts ASCII characters, so may not help much for non-English texts.
  - jliechti1 13y ago
    Do you have any summarized results to share from using this yourself? Also, I might be interested in helping you get this to analyze non-ASCII texts.
    - jcoder 13y ago
      Sure, here's an example of the output from `keyboard_battle --bundled`: texts/alice_underground.txt: qwerty: alternation_effort: 32118 reach_effort: 51842 raw_score: 83960 dvorak: alternation_effort: 24476 reach_effort: 30312 raw_score: 54788 colemak: alternation_effort: 29962 reach_effort: 29403 raw_score: 59365 texts/declaration_of_independence.txt: qwerty: alternation_effort: 3049 reach_effort: 5129 raw_score: 8178 dvorak: alternation_effort: 2237 reach_effort: 2693 raw_score: 4930 colemak: alternation_effort: 2725 reach_effort: 2469 raw_score: 5194 texts/gullivers.txt: qwerty: alternation_effort: 110812 reach_effort: 181778 raw_score: 292590 dvorak: alternation_effort: 81836 reach_effort: 103371 raw_score: 185207 colemak: alternation_effort: 100074 reach_effort: 97327 raw_score: 197401 The raw score is simply the sum of alternation and reach. Without research into whether alternation or reach matters more in the long run, I don't feel like I can provide an aggregate ranking. Regardless, we can draw some rough conclusions like Dvorak is best on alternation, Colemak is best on reach, and they both blow Qwerty out of the water. EDIT: Even though more alternation is better, the numbers above represent effort, meaning subsequent keypresses with the same hand, so lower numbers are always better. As far as contributing goes, if it's possible to reliably support non-ASCII characters without special knowledge of the user's OS config, please take a crack at it (or at least open an issue). Thanks!
- jmhain 13y ago
  Everyone who has actually made the switch, including myself, knows that is complete bullshit. I may be an extreme case, but my typing speed went from 55 wpm to 140 within a year, and with dramatically reduced pain after long programming sprees.
  - to3m 13y ago
    Strong words will convince nobody! I've never cared when people tell me that Dvorak is nonsense, or a lie, or whatever. I know it's hard for people, fighting to keep their QWERTY against this enormous onslaught of Dvorak proponents, so I just let them vent. It doesn't actually usually take long. In fact, I don't even bother putting up a defence any more. Not my fingers, after all...
    - jmhain 13y ago
      Yeah, I'm getting to that point as well. It's just disappointing to see posts like this, because many people here would undoubtedly benefit greatly from a switch. And it's not some scheme to replace QWERTY with Dvorak globally, as they probably think it is, because I know that will never happen. I just don't want those curious hackers, as I was myself six years ago, to be discouraged from giving it a shot.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Sniffnoy 13y ago
This is blogspam. The source[1] is linked right there in the article; please link to that instead. [1] http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/design/2013/05/fact-of-fiction-the-legend-of-the-qwerty-keyboard/ http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/design/2013/05/fact-of-ficti...
- arrrg 13y ago
  Can we please stop this? Journalistic summaries, focusing on certain aspects, are not, never have been and never will be fucking “blogspam”. This complaining is annoying.
  - hnha 13y ago
    call it "needless news aggregation and page view grabbing" then. on a site like hn, that acts as aggregator, one should always link the original source, not some third party piggybacking. those sites fight for page views, so the original creator should be rewarded.
    - arrrg 13y ago
      Even if the content is different?! The focus and tone of the summary is completely different, you cannot substitute one with the other! That’s just crazy!
- acqq 13y ago
  And Smithsonian's is likewise a journalistic retelling of http://kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~yasuoka/publications/PreQWERTY.html http://kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~yasuoka/publications/PreQ... The pdf doesn't load, but the copy on archive.org works: http://web.archive.org/web/20111004212938/http://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433/139379/1/42_161.pdf http://web.archive.org/web/20111004212938/http://repository....
- epo 13y ago
  The Atlantic article wasn't from a blog nor was it spam, but I do see that someone has changed both the title and link. Please stop your infantile, factually incorrect, holier-than-thou name calling, it impresses no one, certainly not me.
zokier 13y ago
I'm not really sure why, if at all, the origins of QWERTY layout matter.
- coldtea 13y ago
  Because the origin "story" was that Qwerty was designed to make you type slower (to not jam the keys in typewriters) and is thus inherently slower and inferior by design. (It was indeed made to not jam the keys, but not by making the typist type slower).
evv 13y ago
For people interested in alternate mobile keyboards: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-minuum-keyboard-project http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-minuum-keyboard-projec... http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/24/kalq/ http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/24/kalq/ http://www.swype.com/ http://www.swype.com/ http://ok.k3a.me/ http://ok.k3a.me/
- swinglock 13y ago
  http://www.swiftkey.net/ http://www.swiftkey.net/
- kanzure 13y ago
  I enjoy using https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.volosyukivan https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.volosyukiv... (type from another keyboard over wifi, through a browser pointed at a tiny server running on android). Does anyone have a recommendation for an android-compatible bluetooth keyboard that doesn't fold, flop, flip, twist, or perform any of the other actions mentioned in the Bop It manual?
to3m 13y ago
"Lies"?! Are they sure that's strong enough? Perhaps "conspiracy" would be more appropriate. The byline could be, "This One Weird Fact That Makes Typists Angry" :)
- coldtea 13y ago
  Funny you should say that, because it indeed was a one-man conspiracy. (For people that don't know it, conspiracy does not necessarily imply tinfoil, aliens or illuminati -- as an example, covert action to harm others for own benefit will do). Dvorak, who had money to gain for his alternative keyboard, falsified research and oversold the improvements, to promote his work over Qwerty.
  - to3m 13y ago
    My point was more the strength of language relative to the seriousness of the issue at stake - or, more precisely, the non-issues that aren't really at stake at all. I couldn't count how many people I've met who can type fine on a QWERTY keyboard, but I can count on one finger (one finger... of one hand!) the number of people I've met who can type on a Dvorak keyboard. And that one finger would be counting me. Or maybe you can just assume I've never met myself - and then I don't even need any fingers at all. (I once worked with a contract programmer, who had been somewhat famous in his own way in the past. Aged mid 40s I guess, so he'd been doing this for 25 years or whatever. Anyway, due to his line of work, and his fame, I'm figuring he'd met a lot of people over this period. And apparently I was the very first person he'd ever met to use the Dvorak layout.) "Storm in a teacup"? LOL, as they say. Doesn't even begin to describe it...
    - coldtea 13y ago
      In that case I agree. Though, one man's teacup could be another man's sea. I mean, we discus like Vim vs Emacs, or CL vs Clojure all the time, things that are also totally peripheral and unimportant in the grand scheme of things.
kriro 13y ago
I always thought qwerty (and the other letters) were on top because they wanted to show it off and type "typewriter" as quickly as possible.
- clhodapp 13y ago
  If this were true, they would be the home row
  - jes5199 13y ago
    the concept of "home row" is part of touch typing, which was invented 15 years after the QWERTY layout
awolf 13y ago
>Keyboard configurations are newly important as we think about how we should type on tablets and other devices. The calling card of the personal computer was the keyboard, and now, we are carrying around pieces of glass on which we simulate the old QWERTY design. Are we going to keep that layout going? I vote yes. A majority of people have already invested a ton of time learning propper typing style on physical QWERTY keyboards. Translating that existing muscle memory to use a similar style on virtual keyboards is a lot easier than people would guess. After about 30 minutes of practice on a virtual keyboard people normally get their typing speeds to a slower, but adequate level in order to be productive. An entirely new input system offers very little opportunity for re-use of existing skills.
- treePhase 13y ago
  I feel like knowledge of a desktop QWERTY keyboard has little affect on your mobile usages, aside from knowing which direction your thumb should move towards. Given the fact that (most?) people use only their thumbs when using their cellphone keyboards, I would argue that's reason enough to design a new keyboard based around this type of usage. Right now I think QWERTY is just a crutch for mobile keyboards until someone really makes something stellar.
  - timtadh 13y ago
    I personally like message ease. It feels like a step in the right direction.
- morpher 13y ago
  With a mobile keyboard, it is simple to allow multiple, easily-switchable layouts. So, although QWERTY probably won't go away soon on account of familiarity this is no reason not to introduce an alternative.
lifeformed 13y ago
The common-letters-spread-far-apart myth never made sense anyways. E, T, S, and A are almost right next to each other, and they're pretty darn common.
protomyth 13y ago
Another fine example of what happens when the story is good enough, the truth gets replaced by the myth.
taoufix 13y ago
This reminds me of an old Slashdot article[1], I read a wile ago, which links to an online comic advocating the Dvorak keyboard[2]. 1: http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/05/06/14/126222/advocating-dvorak http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/05/06/14/126222/advocatin... 2:http://www.dvzine.org/zine/index.html http://www.dvzine.org/zine/index.html
chankey_pathak 13y ago
This is cool!

57 points by epo 13y ago

There's also apparently no real research which shows that Dvorak is actually a more efficient layout: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard#Controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard#Cont...

cecilpl 13y ago
What does "efficient" mean? If it means the distance your fingers have to travel, Dvorak is way more efficient. Typing full time on Dvorak for the last 12 years has, I'm convinced, saved me some wrist and finger pain. Every time I'm forced to jump back onto qwerty for a co-worker or my wife's laptop, I hate it with a passion. It feels like I'm doing finger gymnastics the whole time, rather than actually typing.
- thirsteh 13y ago
  I do hear this a lot, and I have no comprehensive experience with Dvorak, but as far as I know there is no real support for the premise that Dvorak makes you type faster, at least. I'll buy that your fingers might not tire as easily.
  - kanzure 13y ago
    Here's a study that tried to figure out other possibly optimal keyboard layouts (given lots of explicit assumptions): http://arcavia.com/kyle/Projects/ProgrammerKeyboard.html http://arcavia.com/kyle/Projects/ProgrammerKeyboard.html "This was a humongous waste of time. The program to do the analysis is about 700 lines of code, and went though about 3 iterations. I am most disappointed by the lack of benefit offered by a more efficient layout; even when considering a purely optimized layout you only get 21% savings over Qwerty." Of course, there are other ways we could change keyboards. For example, accepting even more data from your digits could be a useful avenue to explore. 20% improvements are not that spectacular, maybe there's a contraption that is conceptually like a keyboard but is 10x faster (so 12 cps -> 120 cps?). Alternatively, plover. but then custom dictionaries and bleh..
- bad_user 13y ago
  Are you sure it was Dvorak that saved you the wrist pain? Also, every time you have to type on Qwerty, maybe it feels like doing finger gymnastic because your fingers aren't used to it? For what is worth I've been finger typing on Qwerty for the last 11 years and I've never had wrist pain. My average is about 90 WPM when doing relaxed typing and over 120 when I stretch myself, and I never felt the need for going faster. My main problem with Dvorak, that often goes unmentioned: it saves you finger stretches ONLY if you're typing English words, being optimized for English and my native language isn't English. The keyboard for my native language is still Qwerty. The Dvorak-equivalent on the other hand is completely different from normal Dvorak. Maybe Qwerty needs a replacement, but Dvorak ain't it.
  - jjoonathan 13y ago
    The distinction between Dvorak and QWERTY when it comes to wrist movements isn't remotely subtle. "This is a test sentence" leaves the home row once on Dvorak and 13 times on QWERTY. That doesn't strike me as atypical. The "flow" of Dvorak is so noticeable that certain words become slightly annoying to type. If we could somehow chart the motion of tendons through your wrist I'm sure I could convince you that the difference is like night and day. > For what is worth I've been finger typing on Qwerty for the last 11 years and I've never had wrist pain. My average is about 90 WPM when doing relaxed typing and over 120 when I stretch myself, and I never felt the need for going faster. It's not about the speed (well, I was a hunt-and-peck typist on QWERTY and I switched in order to break the habit, so it was about the speed, just not in that way). It's nice that you don't have any wrist pain, but are you sure that will always be the case? Even a little tiny bit is enough to put me off writing code and both of us will due the bulk of our typing in the future. > Maybe Qwerty needs a replacement, but Dvorak ain't it. I agree, but only because the barrier to learning Dvorak is rather large and would apply to any Qwerty replacement. It took concentrated effort over the course of months just in order to reach my speed on QWERTY and I'm not sure it was worth as much effort as it took. Still, I'm fairly certain that if you could snap your fingers and use Dvorak/Colemack/Whatever you would.
    - jseliger 13y ago
      The distinction between Dvorak and QWERTY when it comes to wrist movements isn't remotely subtle. I wonder about the extent to which this is due to the keyboard layout itself. For example, I've been using Kinesis Advantage keyboard for the last couple years (http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on-the-kinesis-advantage-unicomp-space-saver-and-das-keyboard%E2%80%94two-years-later/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on... for some of my thoughts on it) and find very little wrist movement when using it. The Advantage is ludicrously expensive for a keyboard, but I also often use it for 40 or more hours per week, and, unlike many default keyboards, its keys don't become sticky or break after a year or two.
- rdw 13y ago
  I know a few people who have switched to Dvorak, and every time I see them using a computer they seem to grapple with one of a few new inefficiencies that stem from using a layout other than the standard: * Having difficulty finding symbols because the keycaps no longer match (I don't know why they don't memorize them after all these years) * Not knowing what mode the keyboard is in to type one's password. * Having to use someone else's machine and being startled by the switch, or someone uses their keyboard and switches it back. * On Windows, in particular, the settings seem to flicker back and forth between Qwerty and Dvorak between programs, and between invocations of the same program. No idea why it's not a global system setting. * Have to reset the keymappings in most video games. I suppose if you were a full-time typist these inefficiencies would be made up for by the increased comfort of the bulk of your day. But for everyone else -- who spend less than 10% of the time typing English sentences -- the standard is probably easier overall.
  - blowski 13y ago
    I tried switching to Dvorak, and encountered exactly those problems. Perhaps if every keyboard instantly switched to Dvorak layout the moment I touched it, then it might have been worth it. Having to think about which keyboard layout I was using added more time and stress than was ever going to be repaid by the supposed benefits of using Dvorak. I gave up after about 3 months, reverting purely to using Qwerty.
  - jliechti1 13y ago
    As a Dvorak (and primarily Mac) user, the switching back and forth on Windows is really annoying for me. I always assumed there must be some system setting that would allow you to switch it for everything. However, this can be pretty easily mitigated by setting a shortcut to change the keyboard layout (usually CTRL+Space on Windows or CMD+Space on Mac). This way if someone uses my computer I quickly change my keyboard setting in less than a second. No inefficiencies. In addition, I find myself frequently using a shortcut like this when I need to change back and forth between typing English and Chinese (Dvorak feels very naturally for typing with Hanyu Pinyin - a method of typing Chinese using the Roman Alphabet, so it's not just good for English sentences). > I suppose if you were a full-time typist these inefficiencies would be made up for by the increased comfort of the bulk of your day. Lastly, I can verify this on a personal level. I can type 80+ WPM on either QWERTY or DVORAK, but DVORAK is way more comfortable to type on. Would I recommend everyone switch? No. But, I find it to be worth it.
- laureny 13y ago
  > What does "efficient" mean? If it means the distance your fingers have to travel, Dvorak is way more efficient. When you talk about efficiency, you need to be more specific. It's not just that Dvorak's superiority over Qwerty for regular typing is very far from being clearly established, Dvorak is terrible for writing code, which requires a lot of non-alphabetical symbols such as {}, (), [], etc...
  - beatgammit 13y ago
    Dvorak is not terrible for writing code. I don't find it difficult at all. Parens are in the same place as on Qwerty, [] and /= have basically switched places (they're both about equally common), and the only real complaint I have is that ls -l abuses my pinky. I do not find myself hampered at all when writing code in Dvorak. If anything, it's better since 90% or so of what you write is identifiers, which are basically just short English phrases. Sure, it's possible to make a more optimized keyboard layout for writing code for a specific lannguage, but I find it to be great all-around. I'm a little sad about where : is (ViM uses it extensively, Go uses it pretty frequently), but alternating hands completely makes up for it (e.g. how often have you typed minimum in code; that by itself can cause RSI in Qwerty).
  - jerf 13y ago
    I once did a scan over our entire code base for []{} vs /=?+, and it came out so close to even as to make no difference. Depending on your language mix, your mileage will vary, but this argument has less general power than people suppose. Dvorak is not terrible for writing code. This is to a large degree because none of /=?+[]{} are in the home row under any layout anyhow. You do lose semicolon under your pinky, but how many QWERTY users are truly touch typing anyhow?
- spc476 13y ago
  I use an IBM Modem M keyboard (both at home and at work; I have a stack of spares just in case) and I haven't had a problem with RSI. Oddly enough, I find non IBM Model M keyboards a pain to type on, both in annoyance and physical pain. Perhaps there's another dimension not being measured---the physical feel of the keyboard.
starpilot 13y ago
Apparently you need "real research" before claiming it's more efficient to put the vowels on the home row rather than scattering them everywhere. It's a good thing that semicolon is right there though, it's totally used more frequently than the letter E.
- derleth 13y ago
  > Apparently you need "real research" before claiming it's more efficient to put the vowels on the home row rather than scattering them everywhere. Yes, you do, or how do you know you're not fooling yourself? Or do you believe in n-rays, too? http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~ken/Langmuir/langB.htm http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~ken/Langmuir/langB.htm
  - StavrosK 13y ago
    Skepticism is all fine and good, but I don't need to run extensive tests, theorize and test to see if the huge, brown, roaring animal in the woods is a bear. Sometimes, 90% probability is a good enough approximation to go with. Sure, you fool yourself 10% of the time, but you save a lot of time the other 90%. Based on this, I think we can preliminarily say that putting the "E" on the home row is probably a good idea.
    - thirsteh 13y ago
      Based on what?
    - snogglethorpe 13y ago
      Stephen Colbert coined a word to describe this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness
      - StavrosK 13y ago
        The other end of the spectrum also has a name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis
DanBC 13y ago
Isn't Dvorak about comfort instead of speed? People trained to similar levels on dvorak or qwerty achieve similar speeds, but qwerty has higher levels of pain, RSI, carpal tunnel, etc? Of course, there are many reasons this could be true that have little to do with the actual layout.
jcoder 13y ago
If anyone is interested in comparing Colemak, Dvorak, and Qwerty for themselves, here's a small executable I wrote: https://github.com/bak/keyboard_battle https://github.com/bak/keyboard_battle. `gem install keyboard_battle`, then `keyboard_battle anytext.txt` or `keyboard_battle --bundled`. I believe it will work with Ruby 1.8, definitely on 1.9. It compares both alternation (more is better) and reach (less is better). The main flaw is that it only counts ASCII characters, so may not help much for non-English texts.
- jliechti1 13y ago
  Do you have any summarized results to share from using this yourself? Also, I might be interested in helping you get this to analyze non-ASCII texts.
  - jcoder 13y ago
    Sure, here's an example of the output from `keyboard_battle --bundled`: texts/alice_underground.txt: qwerty: alternation_effort: 32118 reach_effort: 51842 raw_score: 83960 dvorak: alternation_effort: 24476 reach_effort: 30312 raw_score: 54788 colemak: alternation_effort: 29962 reach_effort: 29403 raw_score: 59365 texts/declaration_of_independence.txt: qwerty: alternation_effort: 3049 reach_effort: 5129 raw_score: 8178 dvorak: alternation_effort: 2237 reach_effort: 2693 raw_score: 4930 colemak: alternation_effort: 2725 reach_effort: 2469 raw_score: 5194 texts/gullivers.txt: qwerty: alternation_effort: 110812 reach_effort: 181778 raw_score: 292590 dvorak: alternation_effort: 81836 reach_effort: 103371 raw_score: 185207 colemak: alternation_effort: 100074 reach_effort: 97327 raw_score: 197401 The raw score is simply the sum of alternation and reach. Without research into whether alternation or reach matters more in the long run, I don't feel like I can provide an aggregate ranking. Regardless, we can draw some rough conclusions like Dvorak is best on alternation, Colemak is best on reach, and they both blow Qwerty out of the water. EDIT: Even though more alternation is better, the numbers above represent effort, meaning subsequent keypresses with the same hand, so lower numbers are always better. As far as contributing goes, if it's possible to reliably support non-ASCII characters without special knowledge of the user's OS config, please take a crack at it (or at least open an issue). Thanks!
jmhain 13y ago
Everyone who has actually made the switch, including myself, knows that is complete bullshit. I may be an extreme case, but my typing speed went from 55 wpm to 140 within a year, and with dramatically reduced pain after long programming sprees.
- to3m 13y ago
  Strong words will convince nobody! I've never cared when people tell me that Dvorak is nonsense, or a lie, or whatever. I know it's hard for people, fighting to keep their QWERTY against this enormous onslaught of Dvorak proponents, so I just let them vent. It doesn't actually usually take long. In fact, I don't even bother putting up a defence any more. Not my fingers, after all...
  - jmhain 13y ago
    Yeah, I'm getting to that point as well. It's just disappointing to see posts like this, because many people here would undoubtedly benefit greatly from a switch. And it's not some scheme to replace QWERTY with Dvorak globally, as they probably think it is, because I know that will never happen. I just don't want those curious hackers, as I was myself six years ago, to be discouraged from giving it a shot.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Sniffnoy 13y ago

This is blogspam. The source[1] is linked right there in the article; please link to that instead. [1] http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/design/2013/05/fact-of-fiction-the-legend-of-the-qwerty-keyboard/ http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/design/2013/05/fact-of-ficti...

arrrg 13y ago
Can we please stop this? Journalistic summaries, focusing on certain aspects, are not, never have been and never will be fucking “blogspam”. This complaining is annoying.
- hnha 13y ago
  call it "needless news aggregation and page view grabbing" then. on a site like hn, that acts as aggregator, one should always link the original source, not some third party piggybacking. those sites fight for page views, so the original creator should be rewarded.
  - arrrg 13y ago
    Even if the content is different?! The focus and tone of the summary is completely different, you cannot substitute one with the other! That’s just crazy!
acqq 13y ago
And Smithsonian's is likewise a journalistic retelling of http://kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~yasuoka/publications/PreQWERTY.html http://kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~yasuoka/publications/PreQ... The pdf doesn't load, but the copy on archive.org works: http://web.archive.org/web/20111004212938/http://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433/139379/1/42_161.pdf http://web.archive.org/web/20111004212938/http://repository....
epo 13y ago
The Atlantic article wasn't from a blog nor was it spam, but I do see that someone has changed both the title and link. Please stop your infantile, factually incorrect, holier-than-thou name calling, it impresses no one, certainly not me.

zokier 13y ago

I'm not really sure why, if at all, the origins of QWERTY layout matter.

coldtea 13y ago
Because the origin "story" was that Qwerty was designed to make you type slower (to not jam the keys in typewriters) and is thus inherently slower and inferior by design. (It was indeed made to not jam the keys, but not by making the typist type slower).

evv 13y ago

For people interested in alternate mobile keyboards: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-minuum-keyboard-project http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-minuum-keyboard-projec... http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/24/kalq/ http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/24/kalq/ http://www.swype.com/ http://www.swype.com/ http://ok.k3a.me/ http://ok.k3a.me/

swinglock 13y ago
http://www.swiftkey.net/ http://www.swiftkey.net/
kanzure 13y ago
I enjoy using https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.volosyukivan https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.volosyukiv... (type from another keyboard over wifi, through a browser pointed at a tiny server running on android). Does anyone have a recommendation for an android-compatible bluetooth keyboard that doesn't fold, flop, flip, twist, or perform any of the other actions mentioned in the Bop It manual?

to3m 13y ago

"Lies"?! Are they sure that's strong enough? Perhaps "conspiracy" would be more appropriate. The byline could be, "This One Weird Fact That Makes Typists Angry" :)

coldtea 13y ago
Funny you should say that, because it indeed was a one-man conspiracy. (For people that don't know it, conspiracy does not necessarily imply tinfoil, aliens or illuminati -- as an example, covert action to harm others for own benefit will do). Dvorak, who had money to gain for his alternative keyboard, falsified research and oversold the improvements, to promote his work over Qwerty.
- to3m 13y ago
  My point was more the strength of language relative to the seriousness of the issue at stake - or, more precisely, the non-issues that aren't really at stake at all. I couldn't count how many people I've met who can type fine on a QWERTY keyboard, but I can count on one finger (one finger... of one hand!) the number of people I've met who can type on a Dvorak keyboard. And that one finger would be counting me. Or maybe you can just assume I've never met myself - and then I don't even need any fingers at all. (I once worked with a contract programmer, who had been somewhat famous in his own way in the past. Aged mid 40s I guess, so he'd been doing this for 25 years or whatever. Anyway, due to his line of work, and his fame, I'm figuring he'd met a lot of people over this period. And apparently I was the very first person he'd ever met to use the Dvorak layout.) "Storm in a teacup"? LOL, as they say. Doesn't even begin to describe it...
  - coldtea 13y ago
    In that case I agree. Though, one man's teacup could be another man's sea. I mean, we discus like Vim vs Emacs, or CL vs Clojure all the time, things that are also totally peripheral and unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

kriro 13y ago

I always thought qwerty (and the other letters) were on top because they wanted to show it off and type "typewriter" as quickly as possible.

clhodapp 13y ago
If this were true, they would be the home row
- jes5199 13y ago
  the concept of "home row" is part of touch typing, which was invented 15 years after the QWERTY layout

awolf 13y ago

>Keyboard configurations are newly important as we think about how we should type on tablets and other devices. The calling card of the personal computer was the keyboard, and now, we are carrying around pieces of glass on which we simulate the old QWERTY design. Are we going to keep that layout going? I vote yes. A majority of people have already invested a ton of time learning propper typing style on physical QWERTY keyboards. Translating that existing muscle memory to use a similar style on virtual keyboards is a lot easier than people would guess. After about 30 minutes of practice on a virtual keyboard people normally get their typing speeds to a slower, but adequate level in order to be productive. An entirely new input system offers very little opportunity for re-use of existing skills.

treePhase 13y ago
I feel like knowledge of a desktop QWERTY keyboard has little affect on your mobile usages, aside from knowing which direction your thumb should move towards. Given the fact that (most?) people use only their thumbs when using their cellphone keyboards, I would argue that's reason enough to design a new keyboard based around this type of usage. Right now I think QWERTY is just a crutch for mobile keyboards until someone really makes something stellar.
- timtadh 13y ago
  I personally like message ease. It feels like a step in the right direction.
morpher 13y ago
With a mobile keyboard, it is simple to allow multiple, easily-switchable layouts. So, although QWERTY probably won't go away soon on account of familiarity this is no reason not to introduce an alternative.

lifeformed 13y ago

The common-letters-spread-far-apart myth never made sense anyways. E, T, S, and A are almost right next to each other, and they're pretty darn common.

protomyth 13y ago

Another fine example of what happens when the story is good enough, the truth gets replaced by the myth.

taoufix 13y ago

This reminds me of an old Slashdot article[1], I read a wile ago, which links to an online comic advocating the Dvorak keyboard[2]. 1: http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/05/06/14/126222/advocating-dvorak http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/05/06/14/126222/advocatin... 2:http://www.dvzine.org/zine/index.html http://www.dvzine.org/zine/index.html

chankey_pathak 13y ago

This is cool!