7 ms·

> "If you're a business and want laptops without an OS" No, I'm a consumer who wants the same variety of laptops/specs/price points that are sold with windows

by Toshio 13y ago

> "If you're a business and want laptops without an OS" No, I'm a consumer who wants the same variety of laptops/specs/price points that are sold with windows eight preinstalled, to be available without microsoft's contraptions, be they operating systems or encryption keys. microsoft doesn't want me to have that choice, and this is the topic at hand, and by the way, you should consider sticking to the topic at hand.

scholia 13y ago
Easy: buy a Mac. If there was a viable market of people willing to pay an economic price for a Linux laptop then there would be companies to provide them. Several have tried. Some are still trying (eg Dell) though it's hard to make money selling to cheapskates. As it is, whatever Linux market there is depends on the economies of scale created by the Windows market. You're saving far more money thanks to Windows than you would ever pay for Windows licences.
- frostmatthew 13y ago
  Just because somebody prefers free/open-source software doesn't make them a "cheapskate"
  - recoiledsnake 13y ago
    Nice strawman. Not wanting to pay thousands of dollars for a PC does not make someone a "cheapskate".
  - scholia 13y ago
    In theory, you're right. However, in reality, the sort of people who whine about paying $20 or less for a bundled copy of Windows are generally not in the market for PCs that have a viable profit margin. This is one of the things that kills would-be Linux companies (though here are others). You're welcome to point me to the evidence for a large group of open source enthusiasts shopping for high-margin laptops.
    - gbin 13y ago
      The problem is not about high-margin / low-margin laptops at all ... it is simply linked to the terrible Linux popularity : I am at my third Sony Z laptop (~2k to ~3k laptops). Every time, the first thing I did with them was to dump the original windows partition and install linux . The "windows tax" on them were negligible and did not impact my choice at all, so would Sony do anything for people like me ? Of course not except if a competitor would produce a successful similar hardware with Linux on it, and that doesn't happen because people don't show interest for linux.
      - scholia 13y ago
        Yes, fair point. However, some widely known attempts to sell Linux hardware have been based on low price points. Early netbooks (which still seem to be popular with Linux users) and the Wal-Mart machines are examples. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen anyone having a go at the Sony Z level...
    - Zak 13y ago
      I don't think that's the case. The argument, as I see it is: In order to buy a product from company X, which I like and want to use, I'm also required to give money to company Y for a product I do not like and am not going to use. I don't want to reward company Y for making a product I do not like, and I am angry company X has made a business/marketing deal that means I can't get its product without rewarding company Y. As others have pointed out already, PC makers get most of their profits at the low-end from bundling. I'd rather pay the same price with no bundled crapware and no bundled OS because dislike crapware and I dislike Microsoft's current operating systems and I do not want the companies that made them to get my money.
      - scholia 13y ago
        It's more complicated than that. See my earlier answer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5659110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5659110 In any case, you're not buying two separate products, you are buying one, integrated product. The thing you think you want does not exist. No OEM says "Hey, I'll make a laptop and then decide which OS to load." Their business is making Windows laptops. If they were designing, qualifying and building Linux laptops, they'd have to charge you a lot more, and you wouldn't pay it. That's why no one does it.
- gabordemooij 13y ago
  Why on earth would I buy a Mac if I am looking for a Linux machine trying to avoid paying for something I don't use. Does it make me a cheapskate if I don't want to pay the Windows/Apple tax? I would have no problem spending let's say $1500 for a decent Linux latop: one with certified hardware, a penguin key (instead of a Windows key), a pre-installed Linux distro and no secure boot nonsense.
  - scholia 13y ago
    Sense of humour failure? He didn't say he wanted a Linux machine, he said he wanted one without "windows eight preinstalled". Otherwise, you're free to spend $1,500 on a decent Mac or Windows laptop and install your distro of choice.... Linus uses a Mac laptop, doesn't he?
  - powertower 13y ago
    Often times, due to Microsoft co-marketing funds, "desktop real-estate" (trial-ware installs), and some other things - that end up offsetting the OEM's costs - you're actually paying less for a system with Windows installed then you are for a system without an OS installed. So the cost issue is mostly a non-issue, as to maintain the same profit margins the OEM will sell the non-OS system at a higher price. This is especially true for "basic" systems, were they sell them at almost cost price... As OEMs make all their profits on upgrades and higher spec systems that they can sell at a markup.
- Nursie 13y ago
  Outside of the US Dell won't sell you a laptop with linux or no OS. I tried enquiring in th UK about the ultrabook that's on sale with Ubuntu in the USA and was told no, no chance. This was a business enquiry too, not just consumer. It was a few months back so I guess it could have changed.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    Last time I checked, Germany is outside US.
    - Nursie 13y ago
      And are dell/ubuntu laptops available there? In which case you are privileged. Couldn't get one here.
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        XPS 13 Notebook, Developer Edition http://www.dell.com/de/unternehmen/p/xps-13-linux/pd?refid=xps-13-linux&baynote_bnrank=0&baynote_irrank=1&~ck=dellSearch&isredir=true http://www.dell.com/de/unternehmen/p/xps-13-linux/pd?refid=x...
  - Erwin 13y ago
    I purchased the Dell XPS developer edition here in DK 2 months ago. While it's under "small business", you can buy it as a private person (the only downside is a stream of annoying small business email ads until they acknowledge your unsubscription). Here it is on the UK site: http://www.dell.com/uk/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd http://www.dell.com/uk/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd
    - Nursie 13y ago
      That's changed recently then. I'd still like it if they would sell you any of their stuff without windows. I don't even need a discount, I just don't want to pay MS for a machine that won't be running their OS.
recoiledsnake 13y ago
I am a consumer and I want an iPad without the cost of iOS so that I load Android on it. Also, I want a cheap sushi restaurant near my home with hot waitresses. Just because you want something doesn't make it happen. There needs to enough of people like you in the market for business to serve it. There have been a lot of Linux OEMs over the years. e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geeknet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geeknet Walmart was selling Linux PCs. If there was demand they would've thrived. There are some like System 76 and the new Dell Ubuntu ultrabook. The OEMs are barely making money as-is. Without the crapware they install their profit is much much less. http://www.tuaw.com/2013/04/17/apple-sells-5-of-pcs-world-wide-makes-45-of-the-profit/ http://www.tuaw.com/2013/04/17/apple-sells-5-of-pcs-world-wi...
- Zak 13y ago
  Any time I've seen someone large or mainstream try to sell Linux PCs, their marketing and sometimes their choice of distribution has been bizarre. At the low-end, they've usually used some no-name distribution with nonstandard components and a skin that looks just like Windows at first glance. I think making it look like Windows is probably the worst thing they could do for user comfort; regardless of looks, they'll eventually run in to something that doesn't work like Windows. The experience is less jarring if it looks different from the start. Getting help from technical friends and relatives is definitely easier if it looks, feels and works like a popular distribution. The low-end Linux machines usually aren't cheaper than Windows, and little explanation of the advantages that might matter to that market segment can be found in the marketing materials for such machines. The advantages as I see them are easy access to a large amount of free, safe software through the distribution's repository, and reduced maintenance relative to Windows; it doesn't become slow, get malware, etc... if you just use it without messing with anything. There have been some really puzzling decisions at the high-end too. Dell's Ubuntu developer machine having the lowest available screen resolution comes to mind. Usually, when large computer manufacturers offer professional machines with Linux, it's hard to find them. There's usually a "customize this model" page that offers a choice of OS - any of several versions of Windows. The Linux versions are treated as separate products and not listed where the standard models are. People only find them if they're actively looking. It almost seems like these ventures were set up to fail so PC manufacturers and/or Microsoft could say "Look. We keep trying and nobody buys these things.".

by Toshio 13y ago

scholia 13y ago

Easy: buy a Mac. If there was a viable market of people willing to pay an economic price for a Linux laptop then there would be companies to provide them. Several have tried. Some are still trying (eg Dell) though it's hard to make money selling to cheapskates. As it is, whatever Linux market there is depends on the economies of scale created by the Windows market. You're saving far more money thanks to Windows than you would ever pay for Windows licences.

frostmatthew 13y ago
Just because somebody prefers free/open-source software doesn't make them a "cheapskate"
- recoiledsnake 13y ago
  Nice strawman. Not wanting to pay thousands of dollars for a PC does not make someone a "cheapskate".
- scholia 13y ago
  In theory, you're right. However, in reality, the sort of people who whine about paying $20 or less for a bundled copy of Windows are generally not in the market for PCs that have a viable profit margin. This is one of the things that kills would-be Linux companies (though here are others). You're welcome to point me to the evidence for a large group of open source enthusiasts shopping for high-margin laptops.
  - gbin 13y ago
    The problem is not about high-margin / low-margin laptops at all ... it is simply linked to the terrible Linux popularity : I am at my third Sony Z laptop (~2k to ~3k laptops). Every time, the first thing I did with them was to dump the original windows partition and install linux . The "windows tax" on them were negligible and did not impact my choice at all, so would Sony do anything for people like me ? Of course not except if a competitor would produce a successful similar hardware with Linux on it, and that doesn't happen because people don't show interest for linux.
    - scholia 13y ago
      Yes, fair point. However, some widely known attempts to sell Linux hardware have been based on low price points. Early netbooks (which still seem to be popular with Linux users) and the Wal-Mart machines are examples. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen anyone having a go at the Sony Z level...
  - Zak 13y ago
    I don't think that's the case. The argument, as I see it is: In order to buy a product from company X, which I like and want to use, I'm also required to give money to company Y for a product I do not like and am not going to use. I don't want to reward company Y for making a product I do not like, and I am angry company X has made a business/marketing deal that means I can't get its product without rewarding company Y. As others have pointed out already, PC makers get most of their profits at the low-end from bundling. I'd rather pay the same price with no bundled crapware and no bundled OS because dislike crapware and I dislike Microsoft's current operating systems and I do not want the companies that made them to get my money.
    - scholia 13y ago
      It's more complicated than that. See my earlier answer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5659110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5659110 In any case, you're not buying two separate products, you are buying one, integrated product. The thing you think you want does not exist. No OEM says "Hey, I'll make a laptop and then decide which OS to load." Their business is making Windows laptops. If they were designing, qualifying and building Linux laptops, they'd have to charge you a lot more, and you wouldn't pay it. That's why no one does it.
gabordemooij 13y ago
Why on earth would I buy a Mac if I am looking for a Linux machine trying to avoid paying for something I don't use. Does it make me a cheapskate if I don't want to pay the Windows/Apple tax? I would have no problem spending let's say $1500 for a decent Linux latop: one with certified hardware, a penguin key (instead of a Windows key), a pre-installed Linux distro and no secure boot nonsense.
- scholia 13y ago
  Sense of humour failure? He didn't say he wanted a Linux machine, he said he wanted one without "windows eight preinstalled". Otherwise, you're free to spend $1,500 on a decent Mac or Windows laptop and install your distro of choice.... Linus uses a Mac laptop, doesn't he?
- powertower 13y ago
  Often times, due to Microsoft co-marketing funds, "desktop real-estate" (trial-ware installs), and some other things - that end up offsetting the OEM's costs - you're actually paying less for a system with Windows installed then you are for a system without an OS installed. So the cost issue is mostly a non-issue, as to maintain the same profit margins the OEM will sell the non-OS system at a higher price. This is especially true for "basic" systems, were they sell them at almost cost price... As OEMs make all their profits on upgrades and higher spec systems that they can sell at a markup.
Nursie 13y ago
Outside of the US Dell won't sell you a laptop with linux or no OS. I tried enquiring in th UK about the ultrabook that's on sale with Ubuntu in the USA and was told no, no chance. This was a business enquiry too, not just consumer. It was a few months back so I guess it could have changed.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Last time I checked, Germany is outside US.
  - Nursie 13y ago
    And are dell/ubuntu laptops available there? In which case you are privileged. Couldn't get one here.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      XPS 13 Notebook, Developer Edition http://www.dell.com/de/unternehmen/p/xps-13-linux/pd?refid=xps-13-linux&baynote_bnrank=0&baynote_irrank=1&~ck=dellSearch&isredir=true http://www.dell.com/de/unternehmen/p/xps-13-linux/pd?refid=x...
- Erwin 13y ago
  I purchased the Dell XPS developer edition here in DK 2 months ago. While it's under "small business", you can buy it as a private person (the only downside is a stream of annoying small business email ads until they acknowledge your unsubscription). Here it is on the UK site: http://www.dell.com/uk/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd http://www.dell.com/uk/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd
  - Nursie 13y ago
    That's changed recently then. I'd still like it if they would sell you any of their stuff without windows. I don't even need a discount, I just don't want to pay MS for a machine that won't be running their OS.

recoiledsnake 13y ago

I am a consumer and I want an iPad without the cost of iOS so that I load Android on it. Also, I want a cheap sushi restaurant near my home with hot waitresses. Just because you want something doesn't make it happen. There needs to enough of people like you in the market for business to serve it. There have been a lot of Linux OEMs over the years. e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geeknet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geeknet Walmart was selling Linux PCs. If there was demand they would've thrived. There are some like System 76 and the new Dell Ubuntu ultrabook. The OEMs are barely making money as-is. Without the crapware they install their profit is much much less. http://www.tuaw.com/2013/04/17/apple-sells-5-of-pcs-world-wide-makes-45-of-the-profit/ http://www.tuaw.com/2013/04/17/apple-sells-5-of-pcs-world-wi...

Zak 13y ago
Any time I've seen someone large or mainstream try to sell Linux PCs, their marketing and sometimes their choice of distribution has been bizarre. At the low-end, they've usually used some no-name distribution with nonstandard components and a skin that looks just like Windows at first glance. I think making it look like Windows is probably the worst thing they could do for user comfort; regardless of looks, they'll eventually run in to something that doesn't work like Windows. The experience is less jarring if it looks different from the start. Getting help from technical friends and relatives is definitely easier if it looks, feels and works like a popular distribution. The low-end Linux machines usually aren't cheaper than Windows, and little explanation of the advantages that might matter to that market segment can be found in the marketing materials for such machines. The advantages as I see them are easy access to a large amount of free, safe software through the distribution's repository, and reduced maintenance relative to Windows; it doesn't become slow, get malware, etc... if you just use it without messing with anything. There have been some really puzzling decisions at the high-end too. Dell's Ubuntu developer machine having the lowest available screen resolution comes to mind. Usually, when large computer manufacturers offer professional machines with Linux, it's hard to find them. There's usually a "customize this model" page that offers a choice of OS - any of several versions of Windows. The Linux versions are treated as separate products and not listed where the standard models are. People only find them if they're actively looking. It almost seems like these ventures were set up to fail so PC manufacturers and/or Microsoft could say "Look. We keep trying and nobody buys these things.".