4 ms·

>We indeed have a parasitic class, for a large degree consisting of immigrants who don't share our culture and consider depending on BI 'awesome' rather than sh

by rtpg 14y ago

>We indeed have a parasitic class, for a large degree consisting of immigrants who don't share our culture and consider depending on BI 'awesome' rather than shameful as Dutch people do. Citation needed. The amount of racism people seem to allow themselves recently makes it feel like we've dragged society back 100 years.

pfortuny 14y ago
Apart from "immigrants" not being a "race", this need for references is a bit ... how would I state it.. overconfident? Come on...
- potatolicious 14y ago
  In almost all countries (including non-White countries) "immigrants" when used as a pejorative is code-word for race. When Americans complain about "immigrants", they sure as shit don't mean Gunther from Germany, they mean Juan from Mexico or Chang from Korea. Europe is not immune from this - France as a whole seems much more staunchly racist (or rather, accepting of casual racism) than the USA. Racism has many faces, especially today where it's now taboo. There are all kinds of ways that racism manifests in modern, developed society without someone screaming "he's black! get him!".
mtrimpe 14y ago
It's a well established fact that a much larger percentage of non-Western immigrants is unemployed compared to Western immigrants and/or locals. [1] [2] As I'm excluding the people inside that group who wish to work but can't find a job from my definition of a 'parasitic' class; that leaves just the group of immigrants that do intentionally live off of our welfare system. On a higher level, I actually still believe that this is a net-positive since I'm convinced that if you leave these people on benefits after a while they'll start getting bored and/or being self-directed. My main concern lies with public antipathy against this (relatively small) subclass growing to levels where it endangers the Dutch welfare system itself, as evidenced by the rise of politicians like Geert Wilders. [1] http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2013/2013-008-pb.htm http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/pub... [2] http://mens-en-samenleving.infonu.nl/sociaal/63170-ongelijkheid-tussen-allochtonen-en-autochtonen.html http://mens-en-samenleving.infonu.nl/sociaal/63170-ongelijkh...
- potatolicious 14y ago
  I don't think the argument was against the first part of your claim (there is a "parasitic" class, in that they are chronically unemployed and reliant on welfare) - this much is obvious at face value even outside of the Netherlands. Immigrants, by the very fact that they're people who have chosen to abandon everything they know to go to a different place, are by and large much poorer than the locals, and much less employable. That's not really the citation needed part. The citation needed part is: > "who don't share our culture and consider depending on BI 'awesome' rather than shameful as Dutch people do" This is the part that rtpg cites as being racist. You've gone from observing a fact to speculating on its causes, and the answer you've arrived at is "because they're lazier" - which as an argument is hundreds of years old and has been used against a laundry list of races. It was a key part of Social Darwinism, and one of the justifications for eugenics. The Italians, the Irish, the Chinese, blacks in the US, etc etc, have all been subject to this argument in the past. The list goes on, and considering how common this argument is, and how frequently it has been debunked, the bar for evidence is high for many of us to be convinced. Side note: it's frequently shocking to me how racist Europe can be to non-Europeans. And here I thought the USA had a bad case of racism - but the diversity seems to at least make people a little more aware, and the country's ugly history with it also sweeps a few common, easy-to-debunk arguments off the board. Around here the "oh, they're just lazier" argument would never go unchallenged if uttered in public, but yours is not the first time I've heard a European utter the notion as if it's the most natural conclusion in the world.
  - white_devil 14y ago
    > yours is not the first time I've heard a European utter the notion as if it's the most natural conclusion in the world. Perhaps you remember our little debate about Somalis in Finland? Do you remember losing it? You still don't get it. Europe has no problem with immigrants who come here and support themselves and adapt to our societies, but Europe does very much have a problem with Muslim immigrants. They come here because they know they can just waltz in and start living on welfare. But they don't want to adapt to their host countries. Instead, they want the West to adapt to them. Here's a bunch of Muslims in Sweden, being shown a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHsTIDekFGM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHsTIDekFGM .. Can you guess why it started with police officers present in the room? -Why that's precisely because the organizers knew the video would make Muslims go apeshit. And go apeshit they did. Right away. Listen to them frantically shouting "allahu akbar" and think about what's going on. What's going through their minds? Is this kind of behaviour suitable for a civilized society? What would your reaction to that video have been? Do you think it warranted raging and attacking people? This is not about racism. It's about facing reality and seeing it for what it is, even despite our governments' efforts to hide it. Again, we have no problem with immigrants who support themselves and behave in a civilized way. It's just that we have way too many who don't.

by rtpg 14y ago

pfortuny 14y ago

Apart from "immigrants" not being a "race", this need for references is a bit ... how would I state it.. overconfident? Come on...

potatolicious 14y ago
In almost all countries (including non-White countries) "immigrants" when used as a pejorative is code-word for race. When Americans complain about "immigrants", they sure as shit don't mean Gunther from Germany, they mean Juan from Mexico or Chang from Korea. Europe is not immune from this - France as a whole seems much more staunchly racist (or rather, accepting of casual racism) than the USA. Racism has many faces, especially today where it's now taboo. There are all kinds of ways that racism manifests in modern, developed society without someone screaming "he's black! get him!".

mtrimpe 14y ago

It's a well established fact that a much larger percentage of non-Western immigrants is unemployed compared to Western immigrants and/or locals. [1] [2] As I'm excluding the people inside that group who wish to work but can't find a job from my definition of a 'parasitic' class; that leaves just the group of immigrants that do intentionally live off of our welfare system. On a higher level, I actually still believe that this is a net-positive since I'm convinced that if you leave these people on benefits after a while they'll start getting bored and/or being self-directed. My main concern lies with public antipathy against this (relatively small) subclass growing to levels where it endangers the Dutch welfare system itself, as evidenced by the rise of politicians like Geert Wilders. [1] http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2013/2013-008-pb.htm http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/pub... [2] http://mens-en-samenleving.infonu.nl/sociaal/63170-ongelijkheid-tussen-allochtonen-en-autochtonen.html http://mens-en-samenleving.infonu.nl/sociaal/63170-ongelijkh...

potatolicious 14y ago
I don't think the argument was against the first part of your claim (there is a "parasitic" class, in that they are chronically unemployed and reliant on welfare) - this much is obvious at face value even outside of the Netherlands. Immigrants, by the very fact that they're people who have chosen to abandon everything they know to go to a different place, are by and large much poorer than the locals, and much less employable. That's not really the citation needed part. The citation needed part is: > "who don't share our culture and consider depending on BI 'awesome' rather than shameful as Dutch people do" This is the part that rtpg cites as being racist. You've gone from observing a fact to speculating on its causes, and the answer you've arrived at is "because they're lazier" - which as an argument is hundreds of years old and has been used against a laundry list of races. It was a key part of Social Darwinism, and one of the justifications for eugenics. The Italians, the Irish, the Chinese, blacks in the US, etc etc, have all been subject to this argument in the past. The list goes on, and considering how common this argument is, and how frequently it has been debunked, the bar for evidence is high for many of us to be convinced. Side note: it's frequently shocking to me how racist Europe can be to non-Europeans. And here I thought the USA had a bad case of racism - but the diversity seems to at least make people a little more aware, and the country's ugly history with it also sweeps a few common, easy-to-debunk arguments off the board. Around here the "oh, they're just lazier" argument would never go unchallenged if uttered in public, but yours is not the first time I've heard a European utter the notion as if it's the most natural conclusion in the world.
- white_devil 14y ago
  > yours is not the first time I've heard a European utter the notion as if it's the most natural conclusion in the world. Perhaps you remember our little debate about Somalis in Finland? Do you remember losing it? You still don't get it. Europe has no problem with immigrants who come here and support themselves and adapt to our societies, but Europe does very much have a problem with Muslim immigrants. They come here because they know they can just waltz in and start living on welfare. But they don't want to adapt to their host countries. Instead, they want the West to adapt to them. Here's a bunch of Muslims in Sweden, being shown a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHsTIDekFGM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHsTIDekFGM .. Can you guess why it started with police officers present in the room? -Why that's precisely because the organizers knew the video would make Muslims go apeshit. And go apeshit they did. Right away. Listen to them frantically shouting "allahu akbar" and think about what's going on. What's going through their minds? Is this kind of behaviour suitable for a civilized society? What would your reaction to that video have been? Do you think it warranted raging and attacking people? This is not about racism. It's about facing reality and seeing it for what it is, even despite our governments' efforts to hide it. Again, we have no problem with immigrants who support themselves and behave in a civilized way. It's just that we have way too many who don't.