3 ms·

I'm always surprised that people don't bring up the Netherlands, which essentially has a BI. If you see a homeless person on the street here you can be sure the

by mtrimpe 13y ago

I'm always surprised that people don't bring up the Netherlands, which essentially has a BI. If you see a homeless person on the street here you can be sure they're either a drug addict or a mental patient, both on the street by choice rather than necessity. We indeed have a parasitic class, for a large degree consisting of immigrants who don't share our culture and consider depending on BI 'awesome' rather than shameful as Dutch people do. The effects of our version of BI aren't actually that pronounced, and the main thing is actually a feeling of comfort, safety and an increased willingness to cooperate (as opposed to compete.) Now a single piece of data from a single country doesn't imply anything, but according to the OECD we work the least yet are the most productive country (per capita, not working hour.) Intuitively and emotionally I would attribute that to our BI / socialist state.

rtpg 13y ago
>We indeed have a parasitic class, for a large degree consisting of immigrants who don't share our culture and consider depending on BI 'awesome' rather than shameful as Dutch people do. Citation needed. The amount of racism people seem to allow themselves recently makes it feel like we've dragged society back 100 years.
- pfortuny 13y ago
  Apart from "immigrants" not being a "race", this need for references is a bit ... how would I state it.. overconfident? Come on...
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    In almost all countries (including non-White countries) "immigrants" when used as a pejorative is code-word for race. When Americans complain about "immigrants", they sure as shit don't mean Gunther from Germany, they mean Juan from Mexico or Chang from Korea. Europe is not immune from this - France as a whole seems much more staunchly racist (or rather, accepting of casual racism) than the USA. Racism has many faces, especially today where it's now taboo. There are all kinds of ways that racism manifests in modern, developed society without someone screaming "he's black! get him!".
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  It's a well established fact that a much larger percentage of non-Western immigrants is unemployed compared to Western immigrants and/or locals. [1] [2] As I'm excluding the people inside that group who wish to work but can't find a job from my definition of a 'parasitic' class; that leaves just the group of immigrants that do intentionally live off of our welfare system. On a higher level, I actually still believe that this is a net-positive since I'm convinced that if you leave these people on benefits after a while they'll start getting bored and/or being self-directed. My main concern lies with public antipathy against this (relatively small) subclass growing to levels where it endangers the Dutch welfare system itself, as evidenced by the rise of politicians like Geert Wilders. [1] http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2013/2013-008-pb.htm http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/pub... [2] http://mens-en-samenleving.infonu.nl/sociaal/63170-ongelijkheid-tussen-allochtonen-en-autochtonen.html http://mens-en-samenleving.infonu.nl/sociaal/63170-ongelijkh...
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    I don't think the argument was against the first part of your claim (there is a "parasitic" class, in that they are chronically unemployed and reliant on welfare) - this much is obvious at face value even outside of the Netherlands. Immigrants, by the very fact that they're people who have chosen to abandon everything they know to go to a different place, are by and large much poorer than the locals, and much less employable. That's not really the citation needed part. The citation needed part is: > "who don't share our culture and consider depending on BI 'awesome' rather than shameful as Dutch people do" This is the part that rtpg cites as being racist. You've gone from observing a fact to speculating on its causes, and the answer you've arrived at is "because they're lazier" - which as an argument is hundreds of years old and has been used against a laundry list of races. It was a key part of Social Darwinism, and one of the justifications for eugenics. The Italians, the Irish, the Chinese, blacks in the US, etc etc, have all been subject to this argument in the past. The list goes on, and considering how common this argument is, and how frequently it has been debunked, the bar for evidence is high for many of us to be convinced. Side note: it's frequently shocking to me how racist Europe can be to non-Europeans. And here I thought the USA had a bad case of racism - but the diversity seems to at least make people a little more aware, and the country's ugly history with it also sweeps a few common, easy-to-debunk arguments off the board. Around here the "oh, they're just lazier" argument would never go unchallenged if uttered in public, but yours is not the first time I've heard a European utter the notion as if it's the most natural conclusion in the world.

by mtrimpe 13y ago

rtpg 13y ago

>We indeed have a parasitic class, for a large degree consisting of immigrants who don't share our culture and consider depending on BI 'awesome' rather than shameful as Dutch people do. Citation needed. The amount of racism people seem to allow themselves recently makes it feel like we've dragged society back 100 years.

pfortuny 13y ago
Apart from "immigrants" not being a "race", this need for references is a bit ... how would I state it.. overconfident? Come on...
- potatolicious 13y ago
  In almost all countries (including non-White countries) "immigrants" when used as a pejorative is code-word for race. When Americans complain about "immigrants", they sure as shit don't mean Gunther from Germany, they mean Juan from Mexico or Chang from Korea. Europe is not immune from this - France as a whole seems much more staunchly racist (or rather, accepting of casual racism) than the USA. Racism has many faces, especially today where it's now taboo. There are all kinds of ways that racism manifests in modern, developed society without someone screaming "he's black! get him!".
mtrimpe 13y ago
It's a well established fact that a much larger percentage of non-Western immigrants is unemployed compared to Western immigrants and/or locals. [1] [2] As I'm excluding the people inside that group who wish to work but can't find a job from my definition of a 'parasitic' class; that leaves just the group of immigrants that do intentionally live off of our welfare system. On a higher level, I actually still believe that this is a net-positive since I'm convinced that if you leave these people on benefits after a while they'll start getting bored and/or being self-directed. My main concern lies with public antipathy against this (relatively small) subclass growing to levels where it endangers the Dutch welfare system itself, as evidenced by the rise of politicians like Geert Wilders. [1] http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2013/2013-008-pb.htm http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/pub... [2] http://mens-en-samenleving.infonu.nl/sociaal/63170-ongelijkheid-tussen-allochtonen-en-autochtonen.html http://mens-en-samenleving.infonu.nl/sociaal/63170-ongelijkh...
- potatolicious 13y ago
  I don't think the argument was against the first part of your claim (there is a "parasitic" class, in that they are chronically unemployed and reliant on welfare) - this much is obvious at face value even outside of the Netherlands. Immigrants, by the very fact that they're people who have chosen to abandon everything they know to go to a different place, are by and large much poorer than the locals, and much less employable. That's not really the citation needed part. The citation needed part is: > "who don't share our culture and consider depending on BI 'awesome' rather than shameful as Dutch people do" This is the part that rtpg cites as being racist. You've gone from observing a fact to speculating on its causes, and the answer you've arrived at is "because they're lazier" - which as an argument is hundreds of years old and has been used against a laundry list of races. It was a key part of Social Darwinism, and one of the justifications for eugenics. The Italians, the Irish, the Chinese, blacks in the US, etc etc, have all been subject to this argument in the past. The list goes on, and considering how common this argument is, and how frequently it has been debunked, the bar for evidence is high for many of us to be convinced. Side note: it's frequently shocking to me how racist Europe can be to non-Europeans. And here I thought the USA had a bad case of racism - but the diversity seems to at least make people a little more aware, and the country's ugly history with it also sweeps a few common, easy-to-debunk arguments off the board. Around here the "oh, they're just lazier" argument would never go unchallenged if uttered in public, but yours is not the first time I've heard a European utter the notion as if it's the most natural conclusion in the world.