4 ms·

You support the USA forcing extradition of foreigners, and you've said that extraordinary rendition isn't a crime, so really it's your turn. I don't support th

by wnight 13y ago

You support the USA forcing extradition of foreigners, and you've said that extraordinary rendition isn't a crime, so really it's your turn. I don't support this at all, but I'd let you be taken because you do. That'd end this sooner than your double standard.

hdxuyx 13y ago
Is not the fault of Americans if other countries are willing to do whatever they are told.
- wnight 13y ago
  So if I take you into a small room and return with your wallet, its a defense that you, ultimately broken and bleeding, handed it to me to make the pain stop?
  - hdxuyx 13y ago
    But the analogy is bad because in cases like this no force is used. Rather, they are willing to do the USA a favor because they are expecting some other type of favor. So still, the countries' fault for doing whatever the USA wants. If they negotiated bad terms is not the USA's fault.
    - wnight 13y ago
      No, no force was used right here, but the USA routinely uses force where it's politically handy, like chasing Osama into Iraq. So it's more like me having extracted your friend's wallet and turning to you with bloody knuckles and asking politely for your wallet. No violence. To you. Because you're not going to say no.
      - sarvinc 13y ago
        Your example shows why context is important. You, of course, forgot to mention what OBL was responsible for and that he continued to incite violence after 9/11. I think you meant Pakistan not Iraq or am I mistaken?
        wnight 13y ago
        No, I mean Iraq. Bush lied about an Osama connection to justify a war with Saddam.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    In an inter-personal context? No. In an inter-national context? Yes.
rayiner 13y ago
I don't understand why you think countries like India should be treated with the same standards as countries like the U.S. It's foolish to think you can have bilateral, equal relationships between countries who don't share basic values. There is much to criticize about the American justice system, but there is even more to criticize about India's justice system, and until they come up to our level we should treat them with a double standard. In different contexts, I don't think such double standards would be controversial. For example, certain European countries refuse to extradite to the U.S. who might be sentenced to the death penalty, even though they expect the U.S. to extradite people to them who might be on trial for say fraud. I would argue that the double standard there is totally justified too.
- wnight 13y ago
  "Up to our level" of holding prisoners, many not captured anywhere near a battlefield or with evidence of fighting the USA and leaving them in prison without trial. Of bombing whoever, whenever, wherever, without a trial, and without review. Our level of persecution of whistleblowers? Or is that optional? Oh, you mean basic values like the belief in perpetual copyright. And your example isn't a double standard, the prisoner being accused of something that's a crime in both jurisdictions and the punishment not being unconscionable in the destination are the basic assumptions of extradition. The double standard is the USA playing political games with trade tariffs, etc to get someone who hasn't committed a local crime.

by wnight 13y ago

hdxuyx 13y ago

Is not the fault of Americans if other countries are willing to do whatever they are told.

wnight 13y ago
So if I take you into a small room and return with your wallet, its a defense that you, ultimately broken and bleeding, handed it to me to make the pain stop?
- hdxuyx 13y ago
  But the analogy is bad because in cases like this no force is used. Rather, they are willing to do the USA a favor because they are expecting some other type of favor. So still, the countries' fault for doing whatever the USA wants. If they negotiated bad terms is not the USA's fault.
  - wnight 13y ago
    No, no force was used right here, but the USA routinely uses force where it's politically handy, like chasing Osama into Iraq. So it's more like me having extracted your friend's wallet and turning to you with bloody knuckles and asking politely for your wallet. No violence. To you. Because you're not going to say no.
    - sarvinc 13y ago
      Your example shows why context is important. You, of course, forgot to mention what OBL was responsible for and that he continued to incite violence after 9/11. I think you meant Pakistan not Iraq or am I mistaken?
      - wnight 13y ago
        No, I mean Iraq. Bush lied about an Osama connection to justify a war with Saddam.
- rayiner 13y ago
  In an inter-personal context? No. In an inter-national context? Yes.

rayiner 13y ago

I don't understand why you think countries like India should be treated with the same standards as countries like the U.S. It's foolish to think you can have bilateral, equal relationships between countries who don't share basic values. There is much to criticize about the American justice system, but there is even more to criticize about India's justice system, and until they come up to our level we should treat them with a double standard. In different contexts, I don't think such double standards would be controversial. For example, certain European countries refuse to extradite to the U.S. who might be sentenced to the death penalty, even though they expect the U.S. to extradite people to them who might be on trial for say fraud. I would argue that the double standard there is totally justified too.

wnight 13y ago
"Up to our level" of holding prisoners, many not captured anywhere near a battlefield or with evidence of fighting the USA and leaving them in prison without trial. Of bombing whoever, whenever, wherever, without a trial, and without review. Our level of persecution of whistleblowers? Or is that optional? Oh, you mean basic values like the belief in perpetual copyright. And your example isn't a double standard, the prisoner being accused of something that's a crime in both jurisdictions and the punishment not being unconscionable in the destination are the basic assumptions of extradition. The double standard is the USA playing political games with trade tariffs, etc to get someone who hasn't committed a local crime.