4 ms·

I Wish Nest Did More Than Thermostats

46 points by krondor 14y ago

gms 14y ago
They will, once they feel that their thermostat is satisfactory enough.
notatoad 14y ago
This seems like kind of a silly. The Ubuntu panel he shows there is simple because programmers have hidden all the complexity. Whoever installed the sprinkler system hid the complexity too - they closed the door on the sprinkler control panel. If you wanted it to be simple, you should have left the door closed. You don't need to adjust it. It should have been programmed by the installer to account for seasonal rainfall. Day-to-day rain does not matter at all to your sprinkler programming. If you want to poke around (literally) under the hood, you don't get to complain about complexity.
- spingu 14y ago
  But the point is it shouldn't feel like you are going "under the hood" to simply change sprinkler schedule. We still INTERACT with Nest without the need to go under the hood. If you simply "closed the door of sprinkler", you can't interact with it. Nest hides the complexity and provides simple interface for the user.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- igul222 14y ago
  The problem is that poking around under the hood shouldn't be necessary. If the sprinkler system worked well enough without ever needing to open the hood, then everything's fine. But it looks like that's not the case.
  - secabeen 14y ago
    Well, it's an interesting question. Is there a market for a $300 sprinkler controller? Rain Bird doesn't think so. I paid about $50 for my controller, and it's relatively easy to use, certainly better than the OPs: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003LY4I14/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003LY4I14/ref=wms_ohs_prod... Also, the OP is eliding over the fact that that controller is probably 10 years old.
    - gregable 14y ago
      It may be 10 years old, but it's still what's being sold: http://www.amazon.com/Rain-Bird-ESP-4M-4-Station-Controller/dp/B001QVIQ9Y/ http://www.amazon.com/Rain-Bird-ESP-4M-4-Station-Controller/...
  - notatoad 14y ago
    Not only is it unnecessary to poke around under the hood, it's bad. If you're changing your sprinkler configuration, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to set the schedule and never touch it again. Changing the schedule (because of rain or weather) is not as good for your lawn as just leaving everything alone. The only control you should ever be touching is the master shutoff valve. Your sprinkler isn't supposed to care about daily rainfall, because that doesn't matter in lawn care. The only problem with the sprinkler in the article is that the internal clock is set wrong, and you can be pretty sure that the reason the internal clock is wrong is because the author tried to tweak things. Don't do that, and the problems go away.
    - sopooneo 14y ago
      But completely apart from the health of your lawn, wouldn't you save water if you had the sprinkler cancel a regularly scheduled watering if it fell during a rain storm?
    - cfinke 14y ago
      If you're changing your sprinkler configuration, you're doing it wrong. Or your lawn is dying because there hasn't been enough rain. Or your lawn is dying because there's been too much rain. Or you're resodding a part of your lawn. Or you're removing part of your lawn to put in a garden. Or you've started using rainbarrels to naturally irrigate your backyard. Or your city has changed which days you can water your lawn on. you can be pretty sure that the reason the internal clock is wrong is because the author tried to tweak things. It could also be because the power went out or because of Daylight Saving Time.
snuze 14y ago
I have used those exact sprinkler system controls and can attest that they are absolutely terrible.
dfc 14y ago
Nest folks, once you are happy with your thermostat product please pivot to water heaters. There is no reason why I heat the water in the tank up throughout the night. I think that my household demand for hot water is fairly predictable with spikes in the morning for showering and in the evening for dishes and laundry.
- shawnz 14y ago
  Have you thought about switching to a tankless hot water system?
  - mikegreen 14y ago
    So I can spend $2800 on a water heater that has questionable reliability, requires a bigger gas line, and will save me 40% off my $18 a month water heating bill? Yes. I've thought of it, but no, it is not a good idea.
    - crymer11 14y ago
      I think your pricing is a little off; my parents have had a Rinnai heater now for more than several years with no reliability issues and spent far less than $2800. Even Amazon has them priced much lower [1]. 1 - http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=rinnai+water+heater http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=rinnai+water+h...
    - rhizome 14y ago
      This looks like a good resource on the topic: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/waterheaters.html http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/waterheaters.html
- chad_oliver 14y ago
  In general, there's a good reason for heating the water overnight: electricity is often cheaper at night, and (on a national level) it means that electricity demand is spread more evenly over the whole 24 hours.
dapak 14y ago
"For bonus points it would also check Google Maps and compare how green my lawn is to my neighbors" How's that going to work when the imagery isn't real time?
- cbhl 14y ago
  Alternatively, it could check what neighbours' sprinkler systems are set to, and recommend the median or mean (or maybe just the max of immediately adjacent neighbours). He's just making a wishlist of features; the particular method of implementation doesn't have to match.
CamperBob2 14y ago
Glad to hear Nest is still around. Last I heard, they were getting the thermonuclear treatment from Honeywell's patent attorneys. Was that resolved recently?
spingu 14y ago
Agreed. But specifically for lawns, I actually wish someone makes much cheaper artificial turfs. Good for aesthetics, better for the environment.. saves hassle time money and water.
- briancurtin 14y ago
  This can't be all that far away. At the size of a baseball field, I'm told it's a no-brainer to go turf at this point. I don't actually know the prices, I'm trusting the college coaches who have mentioned this to me over the last several years (I umpire on the side). One has been on artificial turf for three years, another put turf in this year, and the rest want them.
  - plorkyeran 14y ago
    The usage patterns of a baseball field and a lawn at one's house are generally not going to be very similar, so it doesn't necessarily follow that what's cheaper for one is cheaper for the other. (I have no idea how the prices actually compare.)
rscale 14y ago
Personally, I don't want Nest; I'd prefer coherent locally accessible APIs for monitoring and control.
mgraczyk 14y ago
We're working on it. https://github.com/makilian/Mist https://github.com/makilian/Mist
- smcguinness 14y ago
  Any more info you can share? I'm very interested in something like this.
  - mgraczyk 14y ago
    Yes. I few friends and I have been working on this for a few months as a school project. We're done with school now, but we may still continue the project. So far we have been more focused on the mathematics and the software and less focused on the product because the project was for school.
atdepth 14y ago
Myself and a friend looked in to doing this for sprinkler timers. The aim was to simplify the interface to a large degree and allow for configuration via a browser or mobile device. As it turns out there is a patent on sprinkler timers with embedded web servers. The owner of the patent has posted hostile messages threatening legal action on any public facing website that posts about the handful of consumer products that might infringe on their patent. Here is a link to the patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US7010396 http://www.google.com/patents/US7010396
- gregable 14y ago
  This makes me sad.
tzs 14y ago
This appears to be the manual for that sprinkler controller: http://www.rainbird.com/documents/turf/man_ESPModular.pdf http://www.rainbird.com/documents/turf/man_ESPModular.pdf Setting the time doesn't appear to be too painful.
- mrb 14y ago
  His point stands: if you need a manual to set the time, then the UI is poorly designed. Period.
rentzsch 14y ago
This is where Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) with web tech (ideally) and/or Apps (practically) could shine: the sprinkler system could vend a much better software UI to our smartphones than the hardware UI it's currently offering.
- msutherl 14y ago
  I can't stand UI controllers for physical stuff: 1. When you want to change some parameter of the physical thing, you have to know where your phone is. You can't just go there. 2. You need to take your phone out of your pocket, navigate to the icon, press it, wait, probably tap a button or two, then slide your fingers along a smooth surface in some sort of complex pattern. Meanwhile, you could have walked downstairs and turned a dial, which you can actually feel with your fingers and you don't need to look at. Nest makes big awesome dials. I too wish more startups with good designers would find some way to displace common hardware controls that are unfamiliar and complex.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  Did Android ever get their act together on BLE? Last I checked there are a lot of phones out there with perfectly good BLE chipsets that the OS doesn't acknowledge.
jmomo 14y ago
I have an Ecobee thermostat in my condo, which I am currently in the process of selling. Young people are usually pretty excited about seeing it in action, but older people are actually turned off. My guess is they see it as another complicated VCR that they can't program, and so, it's actually a negative. Even the Nest, with it's simple dial would probably scare them, because smart things scare stupid people. When I tell them that it's an Internet enabled thermostat, they must immediately think, "OMG CHINA HAXORS GUNNA STEAL MY THERMOSTAT MHZ" because that's what the scare-monger media has been telling them over the last six months.
- msutherl 14y ago
  That thing looks like a nightmare. I don't blame them.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  Even the Nest, with it's simple dial would probably scare them, because smart things scare stupid people. Sigh. Yes, that's it. They must be "stupid."
iramiller 14y ago
An irrigation system is far more complicated than a thermostat however there are already strong contenders in this space. I use a Cyber-Rain[1] controller which adjusts based on humidity, temperature and forecast along with details provided during setup such as sprinkler types, soil types, grade and more. When your system has a flow sensor the controller will even shut down the system in the event of a broken head and send an email instead of letting hundreds of gallons of water run down the street. [1]http://cyber-rain.com http://cyber-rain.com
supercanuck 14y ago
I've had this exact same thought. The other area is pools. Turning on the pool heater and pump via wifi, or turning the hot tub on as I leave from work.
bdwalter 14y ago
I find these guys very interesting http://irrigationcaddy.com http://irrigationcaddy.com

46 points by krondor 14y ago

gms 14y ago

They will, once they feel that their thermostat is satisfactory enough.

This seems like kind of a silly. The Ubuntu panel he shows there is simple because programmers have hidden all the complexity. Whoever installed the sprinkler system hid the complexity too - they closed the door on the sprinkler control panel. If you wanted it to be simple, you should have left the door closed. You don't need to adjust it. It should have been programmed by the installer to account for seasonal rainfall. Day-to-day rain does not matter at all to your sprinkler programming. If you want to poke around (literally) under the hood, you don't get to complain about complexity.

spingu 14y ago
But the point is it shouldn't feel like you are going "under the hood" to simply change sprinkler schedule. We still INTERACT with Nest without the need to go under the hood. If you simply "closed the door of sprinkler", you can't interact with it. Nest hides the complexity and provides simple interface for the user.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
igul222 14y ago
The problem is that poking around under the hood shouldn't be necessary. If the sprinkler system worked well enough without ever needing to open the hood, then everything's fine. But it looks like that's not the case.
- secabeen 14y ago
  Well, it's an interesting question. Is there a market for a $300 sprinkler controller? Rain Bird doesn't think so. I paid about $50 for my controller, and it's relatively easy to use, certainly better than the OPs: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003LY4I14/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003LY4I14/ref=wms_ohs_prod... Also, the OP is eliding over the fact that that controller is probably 10 years old.
  - gregable 14y ago
    It may be 10 years old, but it's still what's being sold: http://www.amazon.com/Rain-Bird-ESP-4M-4-Station-Controller/dp/B001QVIQ9Y/ http://www.amazon.com/Rain-Bird-ESP-4M-4-Station-Controller/...
- notatoad 14y ago
  Not only is it unnecessary to poke around under the hood, it's bad. If you're changing your sprinkler configuration, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to set the schedule and never touch it again. Changing the schedule (because of rain or weather) is not as good for your lawn as just leaving everything alone. The only control you should ever be touching is the master shutoff valve. Your sprinkler isn't supposed to care about daily rainfall, because that doesn't matter in lawn care. The only problem with the sprinkler in the article is that the internal clock is set wrong, and you can be pretty sure that the reason the internal clock is wrong is because the author tried to tweak things. Don't do that, and the problems go away.
  - sopooneo 14y ago
    But completely apart from the health of your lawn, wouldn't you save water if you had the sprinkler cancel a regularly scheduled watering if it fell during a rain storm?
  - cfinke 14y ago
    If you're changing your sprinkler configuration, you're doing it wrong. Or your lawn is dying because there hasn't been enough rain. Or your lawn is dying because there's been too much rain. Or you're resodding a part of your lawn. Or you're removing part of your lawn to put in a garden. Or you've started using rainbarrels to naturally irrigate your backyard. Or your city has changed which days you can water your lawn on. you can be pretty sure that the reason the internal clock is wrong is because the author tried to tweak things. It could also be because the power went out or because of Daylight Saving Time.

snuze 14y ago

I have used those exact sprinkler system controls and can attest that they are absolutely terrible.

dfc 14y ago

Nest folks, once you are happy with your thermostat product please pivot to water heaters. There is no reason why I heat the water in the tank up throughout the night. I think that my household demand for hot water is fairly predictable with spikes in the morning for showering and in the evening for dishes and laundry.

shawnz 14y ago
Have you thought about switching to a tankless hot water system?
- mikegreen 14y ago
  So I can spend $2800 on a water heater that has questionable reliability, requires a bigger gas line, and will save me 40% off my $18 a month water heating bill? Yes. I've thought of it, but no, it is not a good idea.
  - crymer11 14y ago
    I think your pricing is a little off; my parents have had a Rinnai heater now for more than several years with no reliability issues and spent far less than $2800. Even Amazon has them priced much lower [1]. 1 - http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=rinnai+water+heater http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=rinnai+water+h...
  - rhizome 14y ago
    This looks like a good resource on the topic: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/waterheaters.html http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/waterheaters.html
chad_oliver 14y ago
In general, there's a good reason for heating the water overnight: electricity is often cheaper at night, and (on a national level) it means that electricity demand is spread more evenly over the whole 24 hours.

dapak 14y ago

"For bonus points it would also check Google Maps and compare how green my lawn is to my neighbors" How's that going to work when the imagery isn't real time?

cbhl 14y ago
Alternatively, it could check what neighbours' sprinkler systems are set to, and recommend the median or mean (or maybe just the max of immediately adjacent neighbours). He's just making a wishlist of features; the particular method of implementation doesn't have to match.

CamperBob2 14y ago

Glad to hear Nest is still around. Last I heard, they were getting the thermonuclear treatment from Honeywell's patent attorneys. Was that resolved recently?

spingu 14y ago

Agreed. But specifically for lawns, I actually wish someone makes much cheaper artificial turfs. Good for aesthetics, better for the environment.. saves hassle time money and water.

briancurtin 14y ago
This can't be all that far away. At the size of a baseball field, I'm told it's a no-brainer to go turf at this point. I don't actually know the prices, I'm trusting the college coaches who have mentioned this to me over the last several years (I umpire on the side). One has been on artificial turf for three years, another put turf in this year, and the rest want them.
- plorkyeran 14y ago
  The usage patterns of a baseball field and a lawn at one's house are generally not going to be very similar, so it doesn't necessarily follow that what's cheaper for one is cheaper for the other. (I have no idea how the prices actually compare.)

rscale 14y ago

Personally, I don't want Nest; I'd prefer coherent locally accessible APIs for monitoring and control.

mgraczyk 14y ago

We're working on it. https://github.com/makilian/Mist https://github.com/makilian/Mist

smcguinness 14y ago
Any more info you can share? I'm very interested in something like this.
- mgraczyk 14y ago
  Yes. I few friends and I have been working on this for a few months as a school project. We're done with school now, but we may still continue the project. So far we have been more focused on the mathematics and the software and less focused on the product because the project was for school.

atdepth 14y ago

Myself and a friend looked in to doing this for sprinkler timers. The aim was to simplify the interface to a large degree and allow for configuration via a browser or mobile device. As it turns out there is a patent on sprinkler timers with embedded web servers. The owner of the patent has posted hostile messages threatening legal action on any public facing website that posts about the handful of consumer products that might infringe on their patent. Here is a link to the patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US7010396 http://www.google.com/patents/US7010396

gregable 14y ago
This makes me sad.

tzs 14y ago

This appears to be the manual for that sprinkler controller: http://www.rainbird.com/documents/turf/man_ESPModular.pdf http://www.rainbird.com/documents/turf/man_ESPModular.pdf Setting the time doesn't appear to be too painful.

mrb 14y ago
His point stands: if you need a manual to set the time, then the UI is poorly designed. Period.

rentzsch 14y ago

This is where Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) with web tech (ideally) and/or Apps (practically) could shine: the sprinkler system could vend a much better software UI to our smartphones than the hardware UI it's currently offering.

msutherl 14y ago
I can't stand UI controllers for physical stuff: 1. When you want to change some parameter of the physical thing, you have to know where your phone is. You can't just go there. 2. You need to take your phone out of your pocket, navigate to the icon, press it, wait, probably tap a button or two, then slide your fingers along a smooth surface in some sort of complex pattern. Meanwhile, you could have walked downstairs and turned a dial, which you can actually feel with your fingers and you don't need to look at. Nest makes big awesome dials. I too wish more startups with good designers would find some way to displace common hardware controls that are unfamiliar and complex.
CamperBob2 14y ago
Did Android ever get their act together on BLE? Last I checked there are a lot of phones out there with perfectly good BLE chipsets that the OS doesn't acknowledge.

jmomo 14y ago

I have an Ecobee thermostat in my condo, which I am currently in the process of selling. Young people are usually pretty excited about seeing it in action, but older people are actually turned off. My guess is they see it as another complicated VCR that they can't program, and so, it's actually a negative. Even the Nest, with it's simple dial would probably scare them, because smart things scare stupid people. When I tell them that it's an Internet enabled thermostat, they must immediately think, "OMG CHINA HAXORS GUNNA STEAL MY THERMOSTAT MHZ" because that's what the scare-monger media has been telling them over the last six months.

msutherl 14y ago
That thing looks like a nightmare. I don't blame them.
CamperBob2 14y ago
Even the Nest, with it's simple dial would probably scare them, because smart things scare stupid people. Sigh. Yes, that's it. They must be "stupid."

iramiller 14y ago

An irrigation system is far more complicated than a thermostat however there are already strong contenders in this space. I use a Cyber-Rain[1] controller which adjusts based on humidity, temperature and forecast along with details provided during setup such as sprinkler types, soil types, grade and more. When your system has a flow sensor the controller will even shut down the system in the event of a broken head and send an email instead of letting hundreds of gallons of water run down the street. [1]http://cyber-rain.com http://cyber-rain.com

supercanuck 14y ago

I've had this exact same thought. The other area is pools. Turning on the pool heater and pump via wifi, or turning the hot tub on as I leave from work.

bdwalter 14y ago

I find these guys very interesting http://irrigationcaddy.com http://irrigationcaddy.com