5 ms·

I wish the race card wouldn't be played as much in all of this, and that it's a conversation about schooling, science, and the risks that we should be willing t

I wish the race card wouldn't be played as much in all of this, and that it's a conversation about schooling, science, and the risks that we should be willing to accept in a free country.

ImprovedSilence 13y ago
I agree. But maybe race is a part of it. Would there be felony charges if she was a white girl from the rich burbs?
- andrewflnr 13y ago
  "Maybe"? Bringing race into a discussion makes everything worse. Don't do it unless you have very good evidence. There's enough injustice here already to talk about.
  - cle 13y ago
    I grew up in and around Bartow. I think there is very good reason to suspect that this may be race related.
- AnthonyMouse 13y ago
  >Would there be felony charges if she was a white girl from the rich burbs? It's a legitimate question but I don't know if the answer is that clear. For something like this to happen you need two things: 1) Rules that are too harsh and too broad, that classify blowing a small hole in the ground by mixing household cleaners just to see what would happen as the same offense as an act of terrorism. 2) "Zero tolerance" law-and-order bureaucrats who don't care that they're ruining the lives of bright young people by charging them with crimes they may technically have committed but fall outside the legislative intent or any sense of proportionality. "Would this happen if she was a rich white girl" is a question of (2). It's plausible that some bureaucrats are racist or are more inclined to prosecute someone expected to have fewer resources to mount a defense, or that the bureaucrats in poor neighborhoods are more likely to draw a hard line. But the way to prevent things like this from happening is really to fix (1). As long as you have rules on the books that make what happened here into a serious offense, you're providing cover for overzealous prosecutors to defend themselves under "just following orders" type rationales that appeal to the letter of the law, and paint the supposed wrong not as being that this girl was charged but that the rich white girl wouldn't be. The problem here is that the rules allow them to do this to anyone. The rules need to change.
KirinDave 13y ago
Except that there are numerous cases of white kids doing similar things and not, you know, having their lives ruined by felony charges.
- betterunix 13y ago
  I am inclined to think that the school would have had the same reaction regardless of the student's race. It sounds like a classic case of, "How dare she learn things we did not sanction in our curriculum?! She needs to be punished!"
  - KirinDave 13y ago
    That would be a comforting fiction. However it seems that this prosecutor might have a pattern of behavior consistent with taking race into account: http://raniakhalek.com/2013/05/02/prosecutor-behind-kiera-wilmot-arrest-filed-no-charges-for-white-teen-who-killed-little-brother/ http://raniakhalek.com/2013/05/02/prosecutor-behind-kiera-wi... While the component you're talking about is real, I'm sure, I suspect that the part of it where a young girl curious about science has her life ruined is probably at least as motivated by race as by control issues in the school.
    - tzs 13y ago
      That link you gave could equally well be used to support the argument that the prosecutor is prejudiced AGAINST white people. Set off a minor explosion at a school where it will put black people at a slight risk, he prosecutes. Kill a white kid, he does not prosecute.
      - KirinDave 13y ago
        Maybe, if America doesn't have a history of white-oppresses-black racism stretching back to before its founding as a country. Since it does, I do not thing any rational reader could com to that conclusion. In either case, it doesn't matter. The point is the prosecutor really seems to be taking race into account on juvenile cases. Were they favoring black kids or unduly penalizing them is immaterial.
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king_jester 13y ago
Schooling, science, and the risk we should be willing to accept in a free society are directly tied to race. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/school-prison-pipeline http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/school-prison-pipeline
betterunix 13y ago
The reason race is being brought up is that black people are underrepresented among scientists, and that this student clearly demonstrated the sort of curiosity that drives great scientists. Punishing her for that would be counterproductive regardless of her skin color; it is made even worse by the fact that we generally want to encourage black people to become scientists.
stmchn 13y ago
Well, it's interesting to note that Tammy Glotfelty, the prosecutor who decided to giver her two felony charges, but decided not to charge another (white) teenager who shot and killed his younger brother with a BB Gun the week before: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/02/1206443/-Would-a-White-Girl-Be-Prosecuted-for-a-Botched-Science-Experiment http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/02/1206443/-Would-a-Wh... Now obviously, the Daily Kos has its own slant so take this with a grain of salt. But certainly seems like the two cases have radically differing reactions from one another.
CapitalistCartr 13y ago
I live in this area. Bartow is phosphate mining and oranges. Culturally diverse it isn't. Her race is most likely relevant. There's a reason Florida is known for weirdness and general idiocy.
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jcromartie 13y ago
I'd be inclined to agree, except that the same prosecutor just decided that there should be no charges where a white boy shot and killed his brother. The boys were pointing BB guns at each other, and didn't think they were loaded.
cle 13y ago
I live right next to Bartow, and I have family who does live in Bartow. There is a very good chance that this is race-related.

I wish the race card wouldn't be played as much in all of this, and that it's a conversation about schooling, science, and the risks that we should be willing to accept in a free country.

ImprovedSilence 13y ago

I agree. But maybe race is a part of it. Would there be felony charges if she was a white girl from the rich burbs?

andrewflnr 13y ago
"Maybe"? Bringing race into a discussion makes everything worse. Don't do it unless you have very good evidence. There's enough injustice here already to talk about.
- cle 13y ago
  I grew up in and around Bartow. I think there is very good reason to suspect that this may be race related.
AnthonyMouse 13y ago
>Would there be felony charges if she was a white girl from the rich burbs? It's a legitimate question but I don't know if the answer is that clear. For something like this to happen you need two things: 1) Rules that are too harsh and too broad, that classify blowing a small hole in the ground by mixing household cleaners just to see what would happen as the same offense as an act of terrorism. 2) "Zero tolerance" law-and-order bureaucrats who don't care that they're ruining the lives of bright young people by charging them with crimes they may technically have committed but fall outside the legislative intent or any sense of proportionality. "Would this happen if she was a rich white girl" is a question of (2). It's plausible that some bureaucrats are racist or are more inclined to prosecute someone expected to have fewer resources to mount a defense, or that the bureaucrats in poor neighborhoods are more likely to draw a hard line. But the way to prevent things like this from happening is really to fix (1). As long as you have rules on the books that make what happened here into a serious offense, you're providing cover for overzealous prosecutors to defend themselves under "just following orders" type rationales that appeal to the letter of the law, and paint the supposed wrong not as being that this girl was charged but that the rich white girl wouldn't be. The problem here is that the rules allow them to do this to anyone. The rules need to change.

KirinDave 13y ago

Except that there are numerous cases of white kids doing similar things and not, you know, having their lives ruined by felony charges.

betterunix 13y ago
I am inclined to think that the school would have had the same reaction regardless of the student's race. It sounds like a classic case of, "How dare she learn things we did not sanction in our curriculum?! She needs to be punished!"
- KirinDave 13y ago
  That would be a comforting fiction. However it seems that this prosecutor might have a pattern of behavior consistent with taking race into account: http://raniakhalek.com/2013/05/02/prosecutor-behind-kiera-wilmot-arrest-filed-no-charges-for-white-teen-who-killed-little-brother/ http://raniakhalek.com/2013/05/02/prosecutor-behind-kiera-wi... While the component you're talking about is real, I'm sure, I suspect that the part of it where a young girl curious about science has her life ruined is probably at least as motivated by race as by control issues in the school.
  - tzs 13y ago
    That link you gave could equally well be used to support the argument that the prosecutor is prejudiced AGAINST white people. Set off a minor explosion at a school where it will put black people at a slight risk, he prosecutes. Kill a white kid, he does not prosecute.
    - KirinDave 13y ago
      Maybe, if America doesn't have a history of white-oppresses-black racism stretching back to before its founding as a country. Since it does, I do not thing any rational reader could com to that conclusion. In either case, it doesn't matter. The point is the prosecutor really seems to be taking race into account on juvenile cases. Were they favoring black kids or unduly penalizing them is immaterial.

deleted 13y ago

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king_jester 13y ago

Schooling, science, and the risk we should be willing to accept in a free society are directly tied to race. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/school-prison-pipeline http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/school-prison-pipeline

betterunix 13y ago

The reason race is being brought up is that black people are underrepresented among scientists, and that this student clearly demonstrated the sort of curiosity that drives great scientists. Punishing her for that would be counterproductive regardless of her skin color; it is made even worse by the fact that we generally want to encourage black people to become scientists.

stmchn 13y ago

Well, it's interesting to note that Tammy Glotfelty, the prosecutor who decided to giver her two felony charges, but decided not to charge another (white) teenager who shot and killed his younger brother with a BB Gun the week before: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/02/1206443/-Would-a-White-Girl-Be-Prosecuted-for-a-Botched-Science-Experiment http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/02/1206443/-Would-a-Wh... Now obviously, the Daily Kos has its own slant so take this with a grain of salt. But certainly seems like the two cases have radically differing reactions from one another.

CapitalistCartr 13y ago

I live in this area. Bartow is phosphate mining and oranges. Culturally diverse it isn't. Her race is most likely relevant. There's a reason Florida is known for weirdness and general idiocy.

deleted 13y ago

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jcromartie 13y ago

I'd be inclined to agree, except that the same prosecutor just decided that there should be no charges where a white boy shot and killed his brother. The boys were pointing BB guns at each other, and didn't think they were loaded.

cle 13y ago

I live right next to Bartow, and I have family who does live in Bartow. There is a very good chance that this is race-related.