4 ms·

Without minimum wage, companies would fix a cleaner's salary at 3 usd per hour. No matter what your experience. Unregulated, most ism's are bad.

by anoncow 13y ago

sp332 13y ago
There are ways of negotiating a salary that don't involve the government mandating your wages.
- anoncow 13y ago
  While a Costco may negotiate and give the worker a fair wage. Others would simply test the limits of the labour market. Though, I feel I am being too cynical, fearing the unknown. I would like to know what the situation was in a pre-minimum-wage era.
  - sp332 13y ago
    It was terrible. Wage slavery lead to Marxist revolutions. Conditions weren't better in American factories, but we escaped bloody revolution by democratically passing numerous planks of the socialist platform into law. (Limited work hours per week etc.)
    - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
      >Wage slavery lead to Marxist revolutions. Any material to back up this wild claim?
      - sp332 13y ago
        Nope, not even one link. Edit: well OK maybe a little one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_the_usa#Two_steps_back.2C_one_forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_the_usa#Two_steps...
        LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
        I'm sorry, I must be blind. Could you please cut & paste a passage from the link you provided that support the claim that: "wage slavery lead to Marxist revolutions" What I'm interested in is: 1. Name of the revolutions. 2. Their place. 3. Their date. 4. Professional historian who claims that the "wage slavery" lead to the events in points 1-3. (not a communist with an agenda) I assure you that the Marxist (or rather Bolshevik) revolution in Russia in 1917 wasn't caused by "wage slavery". As any other communist revolution too. Probably you watch too much KGB-TV... sorry RussiaToday.
        dragonwriter 13y ago
        > I assure you that the Marxist (or rather Bolshevik) revolution in Russia in 1917 wasn't caused by "wage slavery". Sure it was. Wage slavery -> the work of Marx (alone and with and Engels) -> core of the propaganda basis for the Bolshevik revolution (with suitable adaptations to be applied in a something other than an industrialized, democratic, capitalist environment.) Now, it wasn't a proximate cause, but... Aside from that, I suppose, you could look at the generally-less-violent process by which virtually every state even approximately meeting the necessary preconditions for Communism in Marx's work has adopted a substantial subset of the platform laid out in the Communist Manifesto as a form of "Marxist revolution" that is more like the Green Revolution or the Industrial Revolution than the Bolshevik Revolution; in that case, "wage slavery" was more of a proximate cause than it was of any of the various violent revolutions driven by Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism, et al.
        LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
        wow, even more wild claims without providing sources. I lived in communistic country, trust me workers were exploited much more in the communism than in capitalism. They had to work for free in gulags (slave labor), they had to work overtime (i.e. 16 hour shifts), the child labor was common. And any complaints regarding this were equaled to anti-communistic act of treason and punished with jail time. Ever heard of Dear Leader and North Korea? I think you got it backwards. You really did. The revolution of workers against the communistic rule is ultimately this what destroyed communism in the Eastern Block. Solidarnosc was a trading union fighting against communism. If communism was so great for workers why they were the ones who lead the revolution against it in places like Poland? Communism is much more worker unfriendly system than capitalism. So, yep, you got it opposite. There were workers revolutions against communism and not capitalism. But because communism is a religion, you won't listen to these arguments based by facts in recent history, you'll keep mumbling about Marx, so I'll leave you with that. It's like trying to explain to a Catholic that a virgin can't give a birth to a child.
LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
So you work for $3/hr as a cleaner, but while at the shop where you clean you pick up other skills. I.e. helping guys doing other jobs when it gets crazy busy. You noticed how at work everybody usually wants everybody's help. Once you're done cleaning Mrs. A will want you to help her with putting merchandise on the shelves (and she will have to tell you how to do it), Mr. Z will ask you for help with some mechnical stuff he's doing, etc, etc. After 6 months you're worth more than $3/hr because now you have real world experience from a job. You move on to putting merchandise on the shelves, and this can be 5usd/hr. So on, so on. The worst thing that could happen to young guy out of school with basic education would be not to be allowed to work at all. And that's unfortunately what the minimal wage put through by the Unions does to them. Again the unemployment rate among young unskilled workers is 30-40% in the EU on average! You say that's better than letting them find actual job and work even for $3/hr ? Remember that's temporary, nobody sane stays at McDonald's at the cash register all their life. You learn new skills and move on.

Without minimum wage, companies would fix a cleaner's salary at 3 usd per hour. No matter what your experience. Unregulated, most ism's are bad.

by anoncow 13y ago

Without minimum wage, companies would fix a cleaner's salary at 3 usd per hour. No matter what your experience. Unregulated, most ism's are bad.

sp332 13y ago

There are ways of negotiating a salary that don't involve the government mandating your wages.

anoncow 13y ago
While a Costco may negotiate and give the worker a fair wage. Others would simply test the limits of the labour market. Though, I feel I am being too cynical, fearing the unknown. I would like to know what the situation was in a pre-minimum-wage era.
- sp332 13y ago
  It was terrible. Wage slavery lead to Marxist revolutions. Conditions weren't better in American factories, but we escaped bloody revolution by democratically passing numerous planks of the socialist platform into law. (Limited work hours per week etc.)
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    >Wage slavery lead to Marxist revolutions. Any material to back up this wild claim?
    - sp332 13y ago
      Nope, not even one link. Edit: well OK maybe a little one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_the_usa#Two_steps_back.2C_one_forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_the_usa#Two_steps...
      - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
        I'm sorry, I must be blind. Could you please cut & paste a passage from the link you provided that support the claim that: "wage slavery lead to Marxist revolutions" What I'm interested in is: 1. Name of the revolutions. 2. Their place. 3. Their date. 4. Professional historian who claims that the "wage slavery" lead to the events in points 1-3. (not a communist with an agenda) I assure you that the Marxist (or rather Bolshevik) revolution in Russia in 1917 wasn't caused by "wage slavery". As any other communist revolution too. Probably you watch too much KGB-TV... sorry RussiaToday.
        dragonwriter 13y ago
        > I assure you that the Marxist (or rather Bolshevik) revolution in Russia in 1917 wasn't caused by "wage slavery". Sure it was. Wage slavery -> the work of Marx (alone and with and Engels) -> core of the propaganda basis for the Bolshevik revolution (with suitable adaptations to be applied in a something other than an industrialized, democratic, capitalist environment.) Now, it wasn't a proximate cause, but... Aside from that, I suppose, you could look at the generally-less-violent process by which virtually every state even approximately meeting the necessary preconditions for Communism in Marx's work has adopted a substantial subset of the platform laid out in the Communist Manifesto as a form of "Marxist revolution" that is more like the Green Revolution or the Industrial Revolution than the Bolshevik Revolution; in that case, "wage slavery" was more of a proximate cause than it was of any of the various violent revolutions driven by Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism, et al.
        LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
        wow, even more wild claims without providing sources. I lived in communistic country, trust me workers were exploited much more in the communism than in capitalism. They had to work for free in gulags (slave labor), they had to work overtime (i.e. 16 hour shifts), the child labor was common. And any complaints regarding this were equaled to anti-communistic act of treason and punished with jail time. Ever heard of Dear Leader and North Korea? I think you got it backwards. You really did. The revolution of workers against the communistic rule is ultimately this what destroyed communism in the Eastern Block. Solidarnosc was a trading union fighting against communism. If communism was so great for workers why they were the ones who lead the revolution against it in places like Poland? Communism is much more worker unfriendly system than capitalism. So, yep, you got it opposite. There were workers revolutions against communism and not capitalism. But because communism is a religion, you won't listen to these arguments based by facts in recent history, you'll keep mumbling about Marx, so I'll leave you with that. It's like trying to explain to a Catholic that a virgin can't give a birth to a child.

LekkoscPiwa 13y ago

So you work for $3/hr as a cleaner, but while at the shop where you clean you pick up other skills. I.e. helping guys doing other jobs when it gets crazy busy. You noticed how at work everybody usually wants everybody's help. Once you're done cleaning Mrs. A will want you to help her with putting merchandise on the shelves (and she will have to tell you how to do it), Mr. Z will ask you for help with some mechnical stuff he's doing, etc, etc. After 6 months you're worth more than $3/hr because now you have real world experience from a job. You move on to putting merchandise on the shelves, and this can be 5usd/hr. So on, so on. The worst thing that could happen to young guy out of school with basic education would be not to be allowed to work at all. And that's unfortunately what the minimal wage put through by the Unions does to them. Again the unemployment rate among young unskilled workers is 30-40% in the EU on average! You say that's better than letting them find actual job and work even for $3/hr ? Remember that's temporary, nobody sane stays at McDonald's at the cash register all their life. You learn new skills and move on.