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>You can see first hand what happens by looking at large >parts of Europe. Right, like 15-20% unemployment rates. >Countries like Norway does not have massive
by LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
>You can see first hand what happens by looking at large >parts of Europe.
Right, like 15-20% unemployment rates.
>Countries like Norway does not have massive unemployment by >international standard, despite one of the flattest salary >curves in the world.
Because they make gigantic profits on gas and oil. Saying socialism is good because the economy flourishes in Norway is akin to saying monarchy is good because the economy flourishes in Saudi Arabia.
>If I could get a job as a cleaner for what I make as a >software developer, I'd still pick the (much less physically >demanding, and less soul destroying) job as a software >developer.
And if you have no experience what so ever and want to get this first job cleaning for $7/hr you won't stand a chance with minimal pay at $10/hr. Because the employer will get someone experienced instead of you in that price range. So the minimal wage will effectively put you out of the job market. That's why there are so many more unemployed among unskilled young workers than in general population across all age groups. Without the minimal wage law you could get a first job for let's say just $3/hr, then get experience and then get more money as an experienced worker in another job. With minimal wage enforced this is not happening, you stay out of the job market never being able to get this first job.
Before minimal wage law was imposed the unemployment rate among young was the lowest among all group ages. Currently is the highest among all groups ages. This is precisely because of the minimal wage law. Minimal wage was on a political agenda of Unions that lobbied successfuly for it, to actually protect their union members from price competition with young unskilled workers.
Singapore has literally no unemployment among young and has had none for decades. Also has no minimal wage and GDP per capita of over $60K compared to $50k in the US.
And then the whole discussion is really utter nonsense because as long as you can get free labor that's called "internships". So instead of paying minimal wage companies end up paying nothing to guys who could actually make at least these $3/hr. Wouldn't that be better? You see too much regulation completely screwed-up the job market for young unskilled workers. You can get them for minimal wage or for free, but if you want to get them for the market rate it's illegal. That's just plain stupid.
- anoncow 13y agoWithout minimum wage, companies would fix a cleaner's salary at 3 usd per hour. No matter what your experience. Unregulated, most ism's are bad.
- sp332 13y agoThere are ways of negotiating a salary that don't involve the government mandating your wages.
- anoncow 13y agoWhile a Costco may negotiate and give the worker a fair wage. Others would simply test the limits of the labour market. Though, I feel I am being too cynical, fearing the unknown. I would like to know what the situation was in a pre-minimum-wage era.
- sp332 13y agoIt was terrible. Wage slavery lead to Marxist revolutions. Conditions weren't better in American factories, but we escaped bloody revolution by democratically passing numerous planks of the socialist platform into law. (Limited work hours per week etc.)
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago>Wage slavery lead to Marxist revolutions. Any material to back up this wild claim?
- sp332 13y agoNope, not even one link. Edit: well OK maybe a little one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_the_usa#Two_steps_back.2C_one_forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_in_the_usa#Two_steps...
- LekkoscPiwa 13y agoI'm sorry, I must be blind. Could you please cut & paste a passage from the link you provided that support the claim that: "wage slavery lead to Marxist revolutions" What I'm interested in is: 1. Name of the revolutions. 2. Their place. 3. Their date. 4. Professional historian who claims that the "wage slavery" lead to the events in points 1-3. (not a communist with an agenda) I assure you that the Marxist (or rather Bolshevik) revolution in Russia in 1917 wasn't caused by "wage slavery". As any other communist revolution too. Probably you watch too much KGB-TV... sorry RussiaToday.
- ralfn 13y agoYou seem to assume a relationship between price and quality/skill. You are wrong. Price is always in favor of who is better organised. In terms of negotiation, it often resembles a mexican standoff. Who wins a mexican standoff? Well, you dont find out by counting bullets. (Which is what you are doing). Workers get exploited by companies if they have less savings on the bank. Companies get exploited by their workers if they have less savings. In the end they often need each other more than they are willing to admit. The whole socialism vs capitalism debate does actually end up in either revolution or an authoritin state. But to consider minimum wage "socialism" or exploiting interns "capitalism" feels like more americans anally inserting their one dimensional culture war into reality. Does this bullshit pass for "intellectual debate"? I sure hope not. So please dont refer to Europe in your arguments. We are neither socialist nor capitalists. Not into the extreme of these arguments. And not on this one dimensional axis. And unemployment may be high in certain parts of Europe. Its high because we let capitalism do its thing. The economy has to reform itself. Certain economic activity has to burn, to make room for progress. But we do actually take care of each other.