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I learned programming with Turbo Pascal, so I knew before that compilers could be fast and produce efficient code. ;-) If only innovation in Pascal hadn't stopp

by _ak 13y ago

I learned programming with Turbo Pascal, so I knew before that compilers could be fast and produce efficient code. ;-) If only innovation in Pascal hadn't stopped, we might be using it more than we currently do.

pjmlp 13y ago
It did not stop. Ada, Modula-2, Modula-3, Delphi, Oberon, Oberon-2, Component Pascal, Active Oberon, Zonnon, ... The industry just decided to look into another direction and now with buffer exploits everywhere, it is rediscovering that you can have strong typing with compilers that produce native code.
- _ak 13y ago
  Now were we talking about Pascal or everything that vaguely looks like a Wirth language? Delphi, alright, Ada, okay, but the others? Meh. None of them had anything fundamentally innovative or were just too obscure from the beginning.
  - mseepgood 13y ago
    Modula and Oberon do not vaguely look like Wirth lanugages, they are Wirth languages. And unlike Pascal, which was designed mainly for educational purposes, Modula and Oberon were designed for real world usage.
    - _ak 13y ago
      > Modula and Oberon do not vaguely look like Wirth lanugages, they are Wirth languages. I wasn't claiming otherwise, but rather referring to Ada. > And unlike Pascal, which was designed mainly for educational purposes, Modula and Oberon were designed for real world usage. Guess which one caught on for real world usage and which ones mainly stayed in academia. Exactly.
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        > Guess which one caught on for real world usage and which ones mainly stayed in academia. Exactly. Selling Oberon compilers for embedded systems since the late 90's http://www.astrobe.com/default.htm http://www.astrobe.com/default.htm z/OS is coded in a mix of Modula-2, PL/I and Assembly. Newer parts of the system are nowadays written in C++. The problem with any systems programming language is that it needs to be forced into developers by an OS vendor, otherwise very few will use it as such. This is sadly what happened with those languages.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    > Now were we talking about Pascal or everything that vaguely looks like a Wirth language? Delphi, alright, Ada, okay, but the others? I explicitly mentioned Modula-2 on my previous post and most languages on the list are actually done by Wirth or with his input. > None of them had anything fundamentally innovative or were just too obscure from the beginning. Well, I consider systems programming languages with GC pretty innovative, given the way Native Oberon and Bluebottle were used in Zurich's Technical University. Even if the languages are pretty basic when compared with Ada or Delphi. Go's method syntax is actually based in Oberon-2.
    - mseepgood 13y ago
      See also: "Oberon Influences, Conspiration Theories" :) http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OberonOperatingSystem http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OberonOperatingSystem
      - mseepgood 13y ago
        Also, Robert Griesemer studied at ETH Zurich and was a disciple of Wirth, working on Oberon: http://books.google.de/books?id=6kHs4s-79bkC&pg=PA257 http://books.google.de/books?id=6kHs4s-79bkC&pg=PA257
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        Thanks! As a language geek, I tend to collect such information. :)
  - igouy 13y ago
    "...its successors Modula and Oberon are much more mature and refined designs than Pascal. They form a family, and each descendant profited from experiences with its ancestors." Niklaus Wirth http://www.swissdelphicenter.ch/en/niklauswirth.php http://www.swissdelphicenter.ch/en/niklauswirth.php

by _ak 13y ago

pjmlp 13y ago

It did not stop. Ada, Modula-2, Modula-3, Delphi, Oberon, Oberon-2, Component Pascal, Active Oberon, Zonnon, ... The industry just decided to look into another direction and now with buffer exploits everywhere, it is rediscovering that you can have strong typing with compilers that produce native code.

_ak 13y ago
Now were we talking about Pascal or everything that vaguely looks like a Wirth language? Delphi, alright, Ada, okay, but the others? Meh. None of them had anything fundamentally innovative or were just too obscure from the beginning.
- mseepgood 13y ago
  Modula and Oberon do not vaguely look like Wirth lanugages, they are Wirth languages. And unlike Pascal, which was designed mainly for educational purposes, Modula and Oberon were designed for real world usage.
  - _ak 13y ago
    > Modula and Oberon do not vaguely look like Wirth lanugages, they are Wirth languages. I wasn't claiming otherwise, but rather referring to Ada. > And unlike Pascal, which was designed mainly for educational purposes, Modula and Oberon were designed for real world usage. Guess which one caught on for real world usage and which ones mainly stayed in academia. Exactly.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      > Guess which one caught on for real world usage and which ones mainly stayed in academia. Exactly. Selling Oberon compilers for embedded systems since the late 90's http://www.astrobe.com/default.htm http://www.astrobe.com/default.htm z/OS is coded in a mix of Modula-2, PL/I and Assembly. Newer parts of the system are nowadays written in C++. The problem with any systems programming language is that it needs to be forced into developers by an OS vendor, otherwise very few will use it as such. This is sadly what happened with those languages.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  > Now were we talking about Pascal or everything that vaguely looks like a Wirth language? Delphi, alright, Ada, okay, but the others? I explicitly mentioned Modula-2 on my previous post and most languages on the list are actually done by Wirth or with his input. > None of them had anything fundamentally innovative or were just too obscure from the beginning. Well, I consider systems programming languages with GC pretty innovative, given the way Native Oberon and Bluebottle were used in Zurich's Technical University. Even if the languages are pretty basic when compared with Ada or Delphi. Go's method syntax is actually based in Oberon-2.
  - mseepgood 13y ago
    See also: "Oberon Influences, Conspiration Theories" :) http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OberonOperatingSystem http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OberonOperatingSystem
    - mseepgood 13y ago
      Also, Robert Griesemer studied at ETH Zurich and was a disciple of Wirth, working on Oberon: http://books.google.de/books?id=6kHs4s-79bkC&pg=PA257 http://books.google.de/books?id=6kHs4s-79bkC&pg=PA257
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      Thanks! As a language geek, I tend to collect such information. :)
- igouy 13y ago
  "...its successors Modula and Oberon are much more mature and refined designs than Pascal. They form a family, and each descendant profited from experiences with its ancestors." Niklaus Wirth http://www.swissdelphicenter.ch/en/niklauswirth.php http://www.swissdelphicenter.ch/en/niklauswirth.php