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From an entrepreneur's perspective, those policies are scary. When you have a company of 5 people, if you have to let one of them take 3 years paid leave at som

From an entrepreneur's perspective, those policies are scary. When you have a company of 5 people, if you have to let one of them take 3 years paid leave at some point, you might as well close the doors and cease operations.

Samuel_Michon 13y ago
In reality, if you can’t afford it, you simply don’t hire more employees. This is just one of the things you have to factor in, just like there’s always a chance that one of your employees gets seriously ill. People aren’t robots, you can’t expect them to work at 100% efficiency all of the time. In countries that have provisions for maternal and paternal paid leave, companies have adapted to it and they remain competitive.
- greghinch 13y ago
  > In reality, if you can’t afford it, you simply don’t hire more employees. That line of thinking would put pretty much every startup that's ever been through YC or shown up on HN out of business. This is yet another example of why, no matter how hard they try with things like tax incentives and other policies, when other countries make claims like "_____ is the new Silicon Valley of Europe", I know it really isn't. You can lament the price in some aspects of quality of life, but it's hard to argue with the results of US policies on entrepreneurism, particularly things like "at-will employment" in California.
  - Samuel_Michon 13y ago
    “the results of US policies on entrepreneurism” In the US, it’s prohibitively expensive to become an entrepeneur. * Decent health insurance, if you get accepted, will be your biggest expense per month. There’s no government healthcare to speak of. * To start your business, you have to save up or build your product while being employed elsewhere (or freelancing) – the government sure isn’t going to help you out. * And then there’s all your student loans which you have to pay off, whereas in other countries you could’ve gotten it subsidized. There’s no equivalent to Silicon Valley in Europe, and I doubt there will be, but it’s not because of US policies on entrepeneurism.
    - greghinch 13y ago
      > Decent health insurance, if you get accepted, will be your biggest expense per month. There’s no government healthcare to speak of. I've paid for my own insurance for years now. There was previously really very little in the way of you getting accepted, and now with new policies you have to be accepted. As a healthy male in my 20s and now early 30s, I got good coverage for $100-150 a month. > To start your business, you have to save up or build your product while being employed elsewhere (or freelancing) – the government sure isn’t going to help you out. I'm not aware of government programs that pay you to just come up with ideas in other countries, can you enlighten me on what you're referring to? > And then there’s all your student loans which you have to pay off, whereas in other countries you could’ve gotten it subsidized That certainly depends on your personal choices. If you went to a private, liberal arts school, then yes you probably have quite large loans. But if you were having to take out loans for college, you could also go to a state school in the state in which you have residence, and then your tuition fees are quite low. You still may have loans to deal with, but they are certainly not insurmountable (a few years of working would help you make quite a dent and give you some valuable experience which you could apply towards your future business ideas)
      - Samuel_Michon 13y ago
        “As a healthy male” Which is why you got accepted and pay very little. Whether you have ‘good coverage’ is relative, I doubt it is as good as most European healthcare coverage. Also: if, G-d forbid, you get ill, insurance companies in the US can refuse to pay because of ‘pre-existing conditions’. “I'm not aware of government programs that pay you to just come up with ideas in other countries” Many countries have government programs that provide free training, business coaching, and a stipend to get your business up and running. “you could also go to a state school in the state in which you have residence” Which would still be more expensive than it costs most European students in their countries, and they probably get a better education. There are some good state schools like Berkeley, UCLA, Georgia Tech, and Penn State – but they don’t have space to place every student of their state, it’s only relevant for a few. Whereas in European countries, you can always find a state university to go to.
purplelobster 13y ago
I don't know where the 3 year figure comes from, never heard of anything like it. More likely is that you'll see the father taking 2-5 months and the mother 7-10 months. The parental leave you have is also available during the first few years, so many don't take the full duration right away. I also believe the money comes from the state, not that the company has to pay during that time.
- greghinch 13y ago
  I only know about the UK policies, where I believe the first few months are covered by the state, but there is a period that the company has to cover as well. Also the money is only part of the problem; if you have 5 people in a company, every one of them is a key, integral part of that company. Having one away for 7 months would be disastrous.
  - purplelobster 13y ago
    Of course, it's a trade-off for society, unless you can have two types of employment. Long parental leave works in bigger organizations, because there tends to be people who can fill in, but for smaller ones less so. Countries without parental leave in effect force every couple to delay having children, quit their jobs or spend very little time with their little ones, all in favor of startups. Might be the only way that works, I don't know, but it kind of sucks.
  - dagw 13y ago
    Ideally you'll get 4-6 month of warning, which should be plenty of time to find some sort of arrangement. How much warning would you get if one of your employees get headhunted by Google, burns out and quits or even gets hit by that proverbial bus, and how would that be any different? Contingency planning is a big part of running a company, and the question what happens if one of my employees doesn't show up for work tomorrow, really should be a question you can answer
- danielbarla 13y ago
  E.g. in Hungary, it can be up to 3 years: http://www.budapestagent.com/hungarian-mothers-longest-paid-maternity-leave-cee.html http://www.budapestagent.com/hungarian-mothers-longest-paid-... I.e. you don't receive your full salary for the period, but your employer is basically required to give you back your position after 3 years, if you chose to take that long (most people will take only 2 or so). With multiple children, you could actually stay at home for quite a long time.
Steer 13y ago
I see you point, but in Sweden (at least) it is the state that pays the money to the person on paternity leave. It may of course still be a problem that a person is away for quite some time from work and in Sweden you would not be allowed to terminate their employment for this reason, but you would not have any costs for them specifically. When you are on paternity leave you get paid 80 % of your salary, but at most about 950 SEK ($147) per day. You can more or less divvy up the 390 days you get how you want between mother and father.
- greghinch 13y ago
  See my other comment, but the salary is really the lesser part of the problem. Every person in a 5 person company is an integral part of that company, if one of them takes an extended leave but you have to have that position still open for them when they come back, it's a disaster.
LatvjuAvs 13y ago
Lets not have babies. bril!
troels 13y ago
In most (all?) places, the leave is paid for by the state - not the company. That's a rather important distinction.

Samuel_Michon 13y ago

In reality, if you can’t afford it, you simply don’t hire more employees. This is just one of the things you have to factor in, just like there’s always a chance that one of your employees gets seriously ill. People aren’t robots, you can’t expect them to work at 100% efficiency all of the time. In countries that have provisions for maternal and paternal paid leave, companies have adapted to it and they remain competitive.

greghinch 13y ago
> In reality, if you can’t afford it, you simply don’t hire more employees. That line of thinking would put pretty much every startup that's ever been through YC or shown up on HN out of business. This is yet another example of why, no matter how hard they try with things like tax incentives and other policies, when other countries make claims like "_____ is the new Silicon Valley of Europe", I know it really isn't. You can lament the price in some aspects of quality of life, but it's hard to argue with the results of US policies on entrepreneurism, particularly things like "at-will employment" in California.
- Samuel_Michon 13y ago
  “the results of US policies on entrepreneurism” In the US, it’s prohibitively expensive to become an entrepeneur. * Decent health insurance, if you get accepted, will be your biggest expense per month. There’s no government healthcare to speak of. * To start your business, you have to save up or build your product while being employed elsewhere (or freelancing) – the government sure isn’t going to help you out. * And then there’s all your student loans which you have to pay off, whereas in other countries you could’ve gotten it subsidized. There’s no equivalent to Silicon Valley in Europe, and I doubt there will be, but it’s not because of US policies on entrepeneurism.
  - greghinch 13y ago
    > Decent health insurance, if you get accepted, will be your biggest expense per month. There’s no government healthcare to speak of. I've paid for my own insurance for years now. There was previously really very little in the way of you getting accepted, and now with new policies you have to be accepted. As a healthy male in my 20s and now early 30s, I got good coverage for $100-150 a month. > To start your business, you have to save up or build your product while being employed elsewhere (or freelancing) – the government sure isn’t going to help you out. I'm not aware of government programs that pay you to just come up with ideas in other countries, can you enlighten me on what you're referring to? > And then there’s all your student loans which you have to pay off, whereas in other countries you could’ve gotten it subsidized That certainly depends on your personal choices. If you went to a private, liberal arts school, then yes you probably have quite large loans. But if you were having to take out loans for college, you could also go to a state school in the state in which you have residence, and then your tuition fees are quite low. You still may have loans to deal with, but they are certainly not insurmountable (a few years of working would help you make quite a dent and give you some valuable experience which you could apply towards your future business ideas)
    - Samuel_Michon 13y ago
      “As a healthy male” Which is why you got accepted and pay very little. Whether you have ‘good coverage’ is relative, I doubt it is as good as most European healthcare coverage. Also: if, G-d forbid, you get ill, insurance companies in the US can refuse to pay because of ‘pre-existing conditions’. “I'm not aware of government programs that pay you to just come up with ideas in other countries” Many countries have government programs that provide free training, business coaching, and a stipend to get your business up and running. “you could also go to a state school in the state in which you have residence” Which would still be more expensive than it costs most European students in their countries, and they probably get a better education. There are some good state schools like Berkeley, UCLA, Georgia Tech, and Penn State – but they don’t have space to place every student of their state, it’s only relevant for a few. Whereas in European countries, you can always find a state university to go to.

purplelobster 13y ago

I don't know where the 3 year figure comes from, never heard of anything like it. More likely is that you'll see the father taking 2-5 months and the mother 7-10 months. The parental leave you have is also available during the first few years, so many don't take the full duration right away. I also believe the money comes from the state, not that the company has to pay during that time.

greghinch 13y ago
I only know about the UK policies, where I believe the first few months are covered by the state, but there is a period that the company has to cover as well. Also the money is only part of the problem; if you have 5 people in a company, every one of them is a key, integral part of that company. Having one away for 7 months would be disastrous.
- purplelobster 13y ago
  Of course, it's a trade-off for society, unless you can have two types of employment. Long parental leave works in bigger organizations, because there tends to be people who can fill in, but for smaller ones less so. Countries without parental leave in effect force every couple to delay having children, quit their jobs or spend very little time with their little ones, all in favor of startups. Might be the only way that works, I don't know, but it kind of sucks.
- dagw 13y ago
  Ideally you'll get 4-6 month of warning, which should be plenty of time to find some sort of arrangement. How much warning would you get if one of your employees get headhunted by Google, burns out and quits or even gets hit by that proverbial bus, and how would that be any different? Contingency planning is a big part of running a company, and the question what happens if one of my employees doesn't show up for work tomorrow, really should be a question you can answer
danielbarla 13y ago
E.g. in Hungary, it can be up to 3 years: http://www.budapestagent.com/hungarian-mothers-longest-paid-maternity-leave-cee.html http://www.budapestagent.com/hungarian-mothers-longest-paid-... I.e. you don't receive your full salary for the period, but your employer is basically required to give you back your position after 3 years, if you chose to take that long (most people will take only 2 or so). With multiple children, you could actually stay at home for quite a long time.

Steer 13y ago

I see you point, but in Sweden (at least) it is the state that pays the money to the person on paternity leave. It may of course still be a problem that a person is away for quite some time from work and in Sweden you would not be allowed to terminate their employment for this reason, but you would not have any costs for them specifically. When you are on paternity leave you get paid 80 % of your salary, but at most about 950 SEK ($147) per day. You can more or less divvy up the 390 days you get how you want between mother and father.

greghinch 13y ago
See my other comment, but the salary is really the lesser part of the problem. Every person in a 5 person company is an integral part of that company, if one of them takes an extended leave but you have to have that position still open for them when they come back, it's a disaster.

LatvjuAvs 13y ago

Lets not have babies. bril!

troels 13y ago

In most (all?) places, the leave is paid for by the state - not the company. That's a rather important distinction.