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Earlier discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5633954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5633954 Let’s not forget that 8 weeks of paternity leave

Earlier discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5633954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5633954 Let’s not forget that 8 weeks of paternity leave is still way below what the law provides in other countries, on average. Have a look at this graph: http://childrenschances.org/global-maps/parents-and-children/is-paid-leave-available-for-fathers-of-infants/ http://childrenschances.org/global-maps/parents-and-children... Paid leave from work for mothers of infants: Canada 50 weeks, Mexico 12 weeks, USA zero. Paid leave from work for fathers of infants: Canada 35 weeks, Cuba 40 weeks, USA zero. In several European countries, fathers get 3 years paid leave – that’s 20 times more than what Yahoo is offering.

greghinch 13y ago
From an entrepreneur's perspective, those policies are scary. When you have a company of 5 people, if you have to let one of them take 3 years paid leave at some point, you might as well close the doors and cease operations.
- Samuel_Michon 13y ago
  In reality, if you can’t afford it, you simply don’t hire more employees. This is just one of the things you have to factor in, just like there’s always a chance that one of your employees gets seriously ill. People aren’t robots, you can’t expect them to work at 100% efficiency all of the time. In countries that have provisions for maternal and paternal paid leave, companies have adapted to it and they remain competitive.
  - greghinch 13y ago
    > In reality, if you can’t afford it, you simply don’t hire more employees. That line of thinking would put pretty much every startup that's ever been through YC or shown up on HN out of business. This is yet another example of why, no matter how hard they try with things like tax incentives and other policies, when other countries make claims like "_____ is the new Silicon Valley of Europe", I know it really isn't. You can lament the price in some aspects of quality of life, but it's hard to argue with the results of US policies on entrepreneurism, particularly things like "at-will employment" in California.
    - Samuel_Michon 13y ago
      “the results of US policies on entrepreneurism” In the US, it’s prohibitively expensive to become an entrepeneur. * Decent health insurance, if you get accepted, will be your biggest expense per month. There’s no government healthcare to speak of. * To start your business, you have to save up or build your product while being employed elsewhere (or freelancing) – the government sure isn’t going to help you out. * And then there’s all your student loans which you have to pay off, whereas in other countries you could’ve gotten it subsidized. There’s no equivalent to Silicon Valley in Europe, and I doubt there will be, but it’s not because of US policies on entrepeneurism.
      - greghinch 13y ago
        > Decent health insurance, if you get accepted, will be your biggest expense per month. There’s no government healthcare to speak of. I've paid for my own insurance for years now. There was previously really very little in the way of you getting accepted, and now with new policies you have to be accepted. As a healthy male in my 20s and now early 30s, I got good coverage for $100-150 a month. > To start your business, you have to save up or build your product while being employed elsewhere (or freelancing) – the government sure isn’t going to help you out. I'm not aware of government programs that pay you to just come up with ideas in other countries, can you enlighten me on what you're referring to? > And then there’s all your student loans which you have to pay off, whereas in other countries you could’ve gotten it subsidized That certainly depends on your personal choices. If you went to a private, liberal arts school, then yes you probably have quite large loans. But if you were having to take out loans for college, you could also go to a state school in the state in which you have residence, and then your tuition fees are quite low. You still may have loans to deal with, but they are certainly not insurmountable (a few years of working would help you make quite a dent and give you some valuable experience which you could apply towards your future business ideas)
        Samuel_Michon 13y ago
        “As a healthy male” Which is why you got accepted and pay very little. Whether you have ‘good coverage’ is relative, I doubt it is as good as most European healthcare coverage. Also: if, G-d forbid, you get ill, insurance companies in the US can refuse to pay because of ‘pre-existing conditions’. “I'm not aware of government programs that pay you to just come up with ideas in other countries” Many countries have government programs that provide free training, business coaching, and a stipend to get your business up and running. “you could also go to a state school in the state in which you have residence” Which would still be more expensive than it costs most European students in their countries, and they probably get a better education. There are some good state schools like Berkeley, UCLA, Georgia Tech, and Penn State – but they don’t have space to place every student of their state, it’s only relevant for a few. Whereas in European countries, you can always find a state university to go to.
- purplelobster 13y ago
  I don't know where the 3 year figure comes from, never heard of anything like it. More likely is that you'll see the father taking 2-5 months and the mother 7-10 months. The parental leave you have is also available during the first few years, so many don't take the full duration right away. I also believe the money comes from the state, not that the company has to pay during that time.
  - greghinch 13y ago
    I only know about the UK policies, where I believe the first few months are covered by the state, but there is a period that the company has to cover as well. Also the money is only part of the problem; if you have 5 people in a company, every one of them is a key, integral part of that company. Having one away for 7 months would be disastrous.
    - purplelobster 13y ago
      Of course, it's a trade-off for society, unless you can have two types of employment. Long parental leave works in bigger organizations, because there tends to be people who can fill in, but for smaller ones less so. Countries without parental leave in effect force every couple to delay having children, quit their jobs or spend very little time with their little ones, all in favor of startups. Might be the only way that works, I don't know, but it kind of sucks.
    - dagw 13y ago
      Ideally you'll get 4-6 month of warning, which should be plenty of time to find some sort of arrangement. How much warning would you get if one of your employees get headhunted by Google, burns out and quits or even gets hit by that proverbial bus, and how would that be any different? Contingency planning is a big part of running a company, and the question what happens if one of my employees doesn't show up for work tomorrow, really should be a question you can answer
  - danielbarla 13y ago
    E.g. in Hungary, it can be up to 3 years: http://www.budapestagent.com/hungarian-mothers-longest-paid-maternity-leave-cee.html http://www.budapestagent.com/hungarian-mothers-longest-paid-... I.e. you don't receive your full salary for the period, but your employer is basically required to give you back your position after 3 years, if you chose to take that long (most people will take only 2 or so). With multiple children, you could actually stay at home for quite a long time.
- Steer 13y ago
  I see you point, but in Sweden (at least) it is the state that pays the money to the person on paternity leave. It may of course still be a problem that a person is away for quite some time from work and in Sweden you would not be allowed to terminate their employment for this reason, but you would not have any costs for them specifically. When you are on paternity leave you get paid 80 % of your salary, but at most about 950 SEK ($147) per day. You can more or less divvy up the 390 days you get how you want between mother and father.
  - greghinch 13y ago
    See my other comment, but the salary is really the lesser part of the problem. Every person in a 5 person company is an integral part of that company, if one of them takes an extended leave but you have to have that position still open for them when they come back, it's a disaster.
- LatvjuAvs 13y ago
  Lets not have babies. bril!
- troels 13y ago
  In most (all?) places, the leave is paid for by the state - not the company. That's a rather important distinction.
conjecTech 13y ago
Who exactly is paying for this? I honestly don't see how something like this is economically viable or desirable.
- indeyets 13y ago
  State does
- craigyk 13y ago
  I'm not sure exactly. Is the pay at 100%? In California you might be paying already into the state disability program, in which case you are automatically entitled to six weeks of leave at ~50% pay... if your employer is awesome they might cover the rest (so Yahoo might be covering ~70% of the total cost rather than 100%). As so why it is economically desirable: making/raising kids is a HUGE investment in time and money, but without children and involved parents you're looking at disaster 15-20 years down the line. It's desirable/viable in the same way that buying gas is desirable/viable to making your car run.
  - conjecTech 13y ago
    Then how have we been able to get by without this for the vast majority of human history? How has America been able to create and sustain the world's largest and most vibrant economy without such policies?
- rbehrends 13y ago
  Typically, it is is paid through taxes or the health insurance system. Assuming parental leave of 1 year, this amortizes over a working life of 45 years to a little over 2% (while some people will not work or will not work for all 45 years of their lives between 20 and 65, a corresponding fraction will not take parental leave; in fact, if the lower income parent takes parental leave, it's generally less). This pays off because we know that the first two years are absolutely crucial for the development of a child; parental leave pays off in the form of more productive adults and lower criminality. It is well worth the investment even from a purely actuarial perspective and if you disregard the moral component.
philpill 13y ago
3 years seems a bit much to ask of a commercial company. Do they get government subsidies or anything?
- craigyk 13y ago
  Of course they do... I wouldn't be surprised if its close to 100% paid by the government.
danielbarla 13y ago
While this is true, I'm not sure it's the "employers" in those countries that offer the paid leave to mothers / fathers. Rather, it's mandated by law, leaving them very little say in the matter. I also suspect that the tax structure is set up to make this possible - i.e. I don't think it's individual companies that pay for the leave (this would kill many small companies), but rather the government uses part of the income tax to reimburse companies with employees on this type of leave. I'd love some confirmation / addition info from anyone who actually knows how it works.
- indeyets 13y ago
  Yes, exactly. In some countries it's the income tax, in others (Russia) it's a special "social" taxes
snippyhollow 13y ago
No, fathers do not get 3 years paid leave in Europe. Mothers can, in certain countries, with a very reduced wage (paid for by the state most often). Fully paid paternity leave is around 14 days and you can often take more by reducing your pay to 50/60% (depends on countries and employers). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Europe (I can confirm this for France and Germany.)
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  iirc, mothers can currently take 2 years off (I imagine at a reduced wage) in Japan. I think they are discussing extending this to 3 years to try to combat their low childbirth problem (though I don't think this will be effective).
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Samuel_Michon 13y ago
  From your own link: “In the Czech Republic and Slovakia, it is standard that mothers stay at home for 3 years after a child's birth, which may extend with additional children. Mothers can decide to take 2, 3 or 4 years of maternity leave. It is also possible for the fathers to take the leave instead of the mothers but it is not common.” Anyways, you’re missing the point. In the US, no parental leave is mandated whatsoever, which is why an employer offering 2 months is apparently a reason to rejoice. Few developed countries offer so little.
  - dfxm12 13y ago
    In the US, no parental leave is mandated whatsoever People say this like it is a bad thing (and like it is true). First and foremost, the FMLA guarantees 12 weeks leave (unpaid) for qualified workers (men & women). From there, it is up to the states and different employers to offer benefits to gain a competitive advantage. Some states mandate paid leave, plus other benefits, others are expanding this. Some companies offer additional paid leave, plus other benefits. To determine an American's parental leave benefits, you have to add the benefits from the federal government, the state government and the employer. For example, if I had a child tomorrow, I'd get 4 weeks leave paid in full plus I have the option of additional leave at 66% of my salary, and even more unpaid. Overall, it is true that benefits seem better in other countries, but saying that there is no parental leave mandated in the US is disingenuous and completely ignores the fact that it is handled in other ways.

greghinch 13y ago

From an entrepreneur's perspective, those policies are scary. When you have a company of 5 people, if you have to let one of them take 3 years paid leave at some point, you might as well close the doors and cease operations.

Samuel_Michon 13y ago
In reality, if you can’t afford it, you simply don’t hire more employees. This is just one of the things you have to factor in, just like there’s always a chance that one of your employees gets seriously ill. People aren’t robots, you can’t expect them to work at 100% efficiency all of the time. In countries that have provisions for maternal and paternal paid leave, companies have adapted to it and they remain competitive.
- greghinch 13y ago
  > In reality, if you can’t afford it, you simply don’t hire more employees. That line of thinking would put pretty much every startup that's ever been through YC or shown up on HN out of business. This is yet another example of why, no matter how hard they try with things like tax incentives and other policies, when other countries make claims like "_____ is the new Silicon Valley of Europe", I know it really isn't. You can lament the price in some aspects of quality of life, but it's hard to argue with the results of US policies on entrepreneurism, particularly things like "at-will employment" in California.
  - Samuel_Michon 13y ago
    “the results of US policies on entrepreneurism” In the US, it’s prohibitively expensive to become an entrepeneur. * Decent health insurance, if you get accepted, will be your biggest expense per month. There’s no government healthcare to speak of. * To start your business, you have to save up or build your product while being employed elsewhere (or freelancing) – the government sure isn’t going to help you out. * And then there’s all your student loans which you have to pay off, whereas in other countries you could’ve gotten it subsidized. There’s no equivalent to Silicon Valley in Europe, and I doubt there will be, but it’s not because of US policies on entrepeneurism.
    - greghinch 13y ago
      > Decent health insurance, if you get accepted, will be your biggest expense per month. There’s no government healthcare to speak of. I've paid for my own insurance for years now. There was previously really very little in the way of you getting accepted, and now with new policies you have to be accepted. As a healthy male in my 20s and now early 30s, I got good coverage for $100-150 a month. > To start your business, you have to save up or build your product while being employed elsewhere (or freelancing) – the government sure isn’t going to help you out. I'm not aware of government programs that pay you to just come up with ideas in other countries, can you enlighten me on what you're referring to? > And then there’s all your student loans which you have to pay off, whereas in other countries you could’ve gotten it subsidized That certainly depends on your personal choices. If you went to a private, liberal arts school, then yes you probably have quite large loans. But if you were having to take out loans for college, you could also go to a state school in the state in which you have residence, and then your tuition fees are quite low. You still may have loans to deal with, but they are certainly not insurmountable (a few years of working would help you make quite a dent and give you some valuable experience which you could apply towards your future business ideas)
      - Samuel_Michon 13y ago
        “As a healthy male” Which is why you got accepted and pay very little. Whether you have ‘good coverage’ is relative, I doubt it is as good as most European healthcare coverage. Also: if, G-d forbid, you get ill, insurance companies in the US can refuse to pay because of ‘pre-existing conditions’. “I'm not aware of government programs that pay you to just come up with ideas in other countries” Many countries have government programs that provide free training, business coaching, and a stipend to get your business up and running. “you could also go to a state school in the state in which you have residence” Which would still be more expensive than it costs most European students in their countries, and they probably get a better education. There are some good state schools like Berkeley, UCLA, Georgia Tech, and Penn State – but they don’t have space to place every student of their state, it’s only relevant for a few. Whereas in European countries, you can always find a state university to go to.
purplelobster 13y ago
I don't know where the 3 year figure comes from, never heard of anything like it. More likely is that you'll see the father taking 2-5 months and the mother 7-10 months. The parental leave you have is also available during the first few years, so many don't take the full duration right away. I also believe the money comes from the state, not that the company has to pay during that time.
- greghinch 13y ago
  I only know about the UK policies, where I believe the first few months are covered by the state, but there is a period that the company has to cover as well. Also the money is only part of the problem; if you have 5 people in a company, every one of them is a key, integral part of that company. Having one away for 7 months would be disastrous.
  - purplelobster 13y ago
    Of course, it's a trade-off for society, unless you can have two types of employment. Long parental leave works in bigger organizations, because there tends to be people who can fill in, but for smaller ones less so. Countries without parental leave in effect force every couple to delay having children, quit their jobs or spend very little time with their little ones, all in favor of startups. Might be the only way that works, I don't know, but it kind of sucks.
  - dagw 13y ago
    Ideally you'll get 4-6 month of warning, which should be plenty of time to find some sort of arrangement. How much warning would you get if one of your employees get headhunted by Google, burns out and quits or even gets hit by that proverbial bus, and how would that be any different? Contingency planning is a big part of running a company, and the question what happens if one of my employees doesn't show up for work tomorrow, really should be a question you can answer
- danielbarla 13y ago
  E.g. in Hungary, it can be up to 3 years: http://www.budapestagent.com/hungarian-mothers-longest-paid-maternity-leave-cee.html http://www.budapestagent.com/hungarian-mothers-longest-paid-... I.e. you don't receive your full salary for the period, but your employer is basically required to give you back your position after 3 years, if you chose to take that long (most people will take only 2 or so). With multiple children, you could actually stay at home for quite a long time.
Steer 13y ago
I see you point, but in Sweden (at least) it is the state that pays the money to the person on paternity leave. It may of course still be a problem that a person is away for quite some time from work and in Sweden you would not be allowed to terminate their employment for this reason, but you would not have any costs for them specifically. When you are on paternity leave you get paid 80 % of your salary, but at most about 950 SEK ($147) per day. You can more or less divvy up the 390 days you get how you want between mother and father.
- greghinch 13y ago
  See my other comment, but the salary is really the lesser part of the problem. Every person in a 5 person company is an integral part of that company, if one of them takes an extended leave but you have to have that position still open for them when they come back, it's a disaster.
LatvjuAvs 13y ago
Lets not have babies. bril!
troels 13y ago
In most (all?) places, the leave is paid for by the state - not the company. That's a rather important distinction.

conjecTech 13y ago

Who exactly is paying for this? I honestly don't see how something like this is economically viable or desirable.

indeyets 13y ago
State does
craigyk 13y ago
I'm not sure exactly. Is the pay at 100%? In California you might be paying already into the state disability program, in which case you are automatically entitled to six weeks of leave at ~50% pay... if your employer is awesome they might cover the rest (so Yahoo might be covering ~70% of the total cost rather than 100%). As so why it is economically desirable: making/raising kids is a HUGE investment in time and money, but without children and involved parents you're looking at disaster 15-20 years down the line. It's desirable/viable in the same way that buying gas is desirable/viable to making your car run.
- conjecTech 13y ago
  Then how have we been able to get by without this for the vast majority of human history? How has America been able to create and sustain the world's largest and most vibrant economy without such policies?
rbehrends 13y ago
Typically, it is is paid through taxes or the health insurance system. Assuming parental leave of 1 year, this amortizes over a working life of 45 years to a little over 2% (while some people will not work or will not work for all 45 years of their lives between 20 and 65, a corresponding fraction will not take parental leave; in fact, if the lower income parent takes parental leave, it's generally less). This pays off because we know that the first two years are absolutely crucial for the development of a child; parental leave pays off in the form of more productive adults and lower criminality. It is well worth the investment even from a purely actuarial perspective and if you disregard the moral component.

philpill 13y ago

3 years seems a bit much to ask of a commercial company. Do they get government subsidies or anything?

craigyk 13y ago
Of course they do... I wouldn't be surprised if its close to 100% paid by the government.

danielbarla 13y ago

While this is true, I'm not sure it's the "employers" in those countries that offer the paid leave to mothers / fathers. Rather, it's mandated by law, leaving them very little say in the matter. I also suspect that the tax structure is set up to make this possible - i.e. I don't think it's individual companies that pay for the leave (this would kill many small companies), but rather the government uses part of the income tax to reimburse companies with employees on this type of leave. I'd love some confirmation / addition info from anyone who actually knows how it works.

indeyets 13y ago
Yes, exactly. In some countries it's the income tax, in others (Russia) it's a special "social" taxes

snippyhollow 13y ago

No, fathers do not get 3 years paid leave in Europe. Mothers can, in certain countries, with a very reduced wage (paid for by the state most often). Fully paid paternity leave is around 14 days and you can often take more by reducing your pay to 50/60% (depends on countries and employers). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Europe (I can confirm this for France and Germany.)

hkmurakami 13y ago
iirc, mothers can currently take 2 years off (I imagine at a reduced wage) in Japan. I think they are discussing extending this to 3 years to try to combat their low childbirth problem (though I don't think this will be effective).
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Samuel_Michon 13y ago
From your own link: “In the Czech Republic and Slovakia, it is standard that mothers stay at home for 3 years after a child's birth, which may extend with additional children. Mothers can decide to take 2, 3 or 4 years of maternity leave. It is also possible for the fathers to take the leave instead of the mothers but it is not common.” Anyways, you’re missing the point. In the US, no parental leave is mandated whatsoever, which is why an employer offering 2 months is apparently a reason to rejoice. Few developed countries offer so little.
- dfxm12 13y ago
  In the US, no parental leave is mandated whatsoever People say this like it is a bad thing (and like it is true). First and foremost, the FMLA guarantees 12 weeks leave (unpaid) for qualified workers (men & women). From there, it is up to the states and different employers to offer benefits to gain a competitive advantage. Some states mandate paid leave, plus other benefits, others are expanding this. Some companies offer additional paid leave, plus other benefits. To determine an American's parental leave benefits, you have to add the benefits from the federal government, the state government and the employer. For example, if I had a child tomorrow, I'd get 4 weeks leave paid in full plus I have the option of additional leave at 66% of my salary, and even more unpaid. Overall, it is true that benefits seem better in other countries, but saying that there is no parental leave mandated in the US is disingenuous and completely ignores the fact that it is handled in other ways.