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A lot of programmers I know could really learn from the "social rules" on this page. There's no need to try to prove oneself to be the smartest in the room on

by d23 14y ago

A lot of programmers I know could really learn from the "social rules" on this page. There's no need to try to prove oneself to be the smartest in the room on every topic. It takes a lot more balls to say "wow, I really can't even remember whether the syntax was X->Y() or X.Y()!" The "well-actually" problem is particularly rampant on HN.

pokpokpok 14y ago
I don't think that "well-actually" comments online have a fraction of the negative social effects that they do in a really life situation.
- d23 14y ago
  For both, it creates an annoying, pedantic atmosphere.
- slaundy 14y ago
  They're a large part of why I've almost entirely stopped reading comments on HN. Too many people more interested in being right than having an actual discussion.
- dustingetz 14y ago
  agreed. in a 3 person private conversation, a factual inaccuracy that is not central to the point isn't going to harm the participants. Online, the conversation is public. People who don't know what they're talking about should be politely called out before they stir up FUD or otherwise cause harm. (i am a hackerschool alum)
  - pindi 14y ago
    I think the focus is on pedantic corrections that are entirely irrelevant to the discussion and serve only to make the commenter feel superior. For example, see this recent thread [1]. The first commenter proposes a device that would use a Molex connector. The second points out that the device needs to interface with a wire not found on the Molex 8981 connector, a useful correction. The third makes the inane observation that Molex the company makes many connectors, when it is obvious that the first two commenters were referring to the Molex 8981 connector specifically. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5638420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5638420
guptaneil 14y ago
Agreed. Likewise, the feigning surprise one is a common problem in real-world conversations. I am guilty of it too, and have been trying to break the habit for the past few months. I always feel bad whenever I slip up, so it's nice to see it codified as poor etiquette here.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
d0mine 14y ago
What is the problem with "well-actually" especially in online environment? I can understand "This is especially annoying when the correction has no bearing on the actual conversation." case in a face-to-face conversation but the manual forbids all corrections whether they are essential to the discussion or not. Or should the rule be interpreted as: essential corrections are allowed but the literal phrase "well, actually" is forbidden? If someone says if X then Y; you should be allowed to say: actually X' and therefore Z i.e., a subtle imprecision in the premise might lead to the big difference in outcomes. Otherwise technical discussion degrades to a smalltalk.
- nicholasjbs 14y ago
  The purpose of "no well-actually's" isn't to curtail accurate and precise technical conversation, which would obviously be problematic for creating an environment where people can become great programmers. This is why we state in the manual that "This doesn't mean Hacker School isn't about truth-seeking or that we don't care about being precise." In practice, I don't think the problem you're pointing out has ever been an issue.
- thumbtackthief 14y ago
  Well actually, it turns into less of helping the other person understand and more of proving your superiority.
  - nostrademons 14y ago
    But it doesn't - in the online environment of Hacker News. A good well-actually here often adds a lot to the discussion: it brings up points that others may have forgotten, elaborates on concepts that can be very complex, points the anonymous reader toward other resources that they may never have heard of, and can lend validation and social proof to ideas. And the negatives are curtailed by the short, high-population, transactional nature of message boards. When someone corrects you on Hacker News, it doesn't make you feel stupid (I hope): it just means that someone out there, among the hundreds of thousands of readers, had better information than you did. There's no real jockeying for social status on Hacker News, because if you get karma or score that point - who cares? You never see them again. That's very different from a school environment, where you are pushing your comfort zone in front of a small number of classmates, and a correction can make you feel stupid and negatively impact your confidence. You have to learn with these people for a while; if you feel devalued from the beginning, your learning is going to suffer.

by d23 14y ago

pokpokpok 14y ago

I don't think that "well-actually" comments online have a fraction of the negative social effects that they do in a really life situation.

d23 14y ago
For both, it creates an annoying, pedantic atmosphere.
slaundy 14y ago
They're a large part of why I've almost entirely stopped reading comments on HN. Too many people more interested in being right than having an actual discussion.
dustingetz 14y ago
agreed. in a 3 person private conversation, a factual inaccuracy that is not central to the point isn't going to harm the participants. Online, the conversation is public. People who don't know what they're talking about should be politely called out before they stir up FUD or otherwise cause harm. (i am a hackerschool alum)
- pindi 14y ago
  I think the focus is on pedantic corrections that are entirely irrelevant to the discussion and serve only to make the commenter feel superior. For example, see this recent thread [1]. The first commenter proposes a device that would use a Molex connector. The second points out that the device needs to interface with a wire not found on the Molex 8981 connector, a useful correction. The third makes the inane observation that Molex the company makes many connectors, when it is obvious that the first two commenters were referring to the Molex 8981 connector specifically. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5638420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5638420

guptaneil 14y ago

Agreed. Likewise, the feigning surprise one is a common problem in real-world conversations. I am guilty of it too, and have been trying to break the habit for the past few months. I always feel bad whenever I slip up, so it's nice to see it codified as poor etiquette here.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

d0mine 14y ago

What is the problem with "well-actually" especially in online environment? I can understand "This is especially annoying when the correction has no bearing on the actual conversation." case in a face-to-face conversation but the manual forbids all corrections whether they are essential to the discussion or not. Or should the rule be interpreted as: essential corrections are allowed but the literal phrase "well, actually" is forbidden? If someone says if X then Y; you should be allowed to say: actually X' and therefore Z i.e., a subtle imprecision in the premise might lead to the big difference in outcomes. Otherwise technical discussion degrades to a smalltalk.

nicholasjbs 14y ago
The purpose of "no well-actually's" isn't to curtail accurate and precise technical conversation, which would obviously be problematic for creating an environment where people can become great programmers. This is why we state in the manual that "This doesn't mean Hacker School isn't about truth-seeking or that we don't care about being precise." In practice, I don't think the problem you're pointing out has ever been an issue.
thumbtackthief 14y ago
Well actually, it turns into less of helping the other person understand and more of proving your superiority.
- nostrademons 14y ago
  But it doesn't - in the online environment of Hacker News. A good well-actually here often adds a lot to the discussion: it brings up points that others may have forgotten, elaborates on concepts that can be very complex, points the anonymous reader toward other resources that they may never have heard of, and can lend validation and social proof to ideas. And the negatives are curtailed by the short, high-population, transactional nature of message boards. When someone corrects you on Hacker News, it doesn't make you feel stupid (I hope): it just means that someone out there, among the hundreds of thousands of readers, had better information than you did. There's no real jockeying for social status on Hacker News, because if you get karma or score that point - who cares? You never see them again. That's very different from a school environment, where you are pushing your comfort zone in front of a small number of classmates, and a correction can make you feel stupid and negatively impact your confidence. You have to learn with these people for a while; if you feel devalued from the beginning, your learning is going to suffer.